A Bunkai revolution?

[NightOwl]

2nd tip of the hat Mr. Flanagan -

Kata (unless the character for the karate term is different) roughly translates to 'way of doing'. Ex: tsukaukata means 'the way/ process of using something' or tabekata 'the way to eat (something)'. So looking at the meaning of the term 'kata', it is supposed to represent how to do something. However since oftentimes the way to apply the techniques wasn't written down, we are left to discover them on our own. But just because what was meant to be learned isn't know for sure, doesn't mean that you can't make an educated guess no? Personally I am very happy to see this trend in the karate community, as I think that it really shows the depth of karate beyond just strikes. Yes, you will get people who interpret it wrong, and sometimes the technique may not even be that great even if it is correct, but it gives you a taste of the original purpose of kata, and in the process helps expand your knowledge of martial arts on a deeper level as a whole.

[Shorin Ryuu]

2nd tip of the hat Mr. Flanagan -

Kata (unless the character for the karate term is different) roughly translates to 'way of doing'. Ex: tsukaukata means 'the way/ process of using something' or tabekata 'the way to eat (something)'. So looking at the meaning of the term 'kata', it is supposed to represent how to do something. However since oftentimes the way to apply the techniques wasn't written down, we are left to discover them on our own. But just because what was meant to be learned isn't know for sure, doesn't mean that you can't make an educated guess no? Personally I am very happy to see this trend in the karate community, as I think that it really shows the depth of karate beyond just strikes. Yes, you will get people who interpret it wrong, and sometimes the technique may not even be that great even if it is correct, but it gives you a taste of the original purpose of kata, and in the process helps expand your knowledge of martial arts on a deeper level as a whole.

Kata is 型, which just means mold, shape, type, etc. Alternatively, sometimes 形 is used, which means form, shape, etc. In either case, 方 is never used as the kanji for it, which means "way of doing" like you mentioned above.

I personally prefer going with the original meanings, but not everyone has that luxury.

[kgcobra320]

Do you think that delving into such intricate levels of bunkai is beginning to re-emerge in many to the "traditional" arts of which forms are a major part of the curriculum? Is the bunkai a legitimate translation of the forms we study, or is it a more recent product of extensive analysation of katas, saying, "oh, yeah, this could be this, and it could work"???

What is everyone's opinion on this? Either way, I think that bunkai is a good thing. I don't think it is detrimental in anyway to training. It is good to let the creative juices mix it up from time to time.

I feel that the analysis of the various katas that has been going on recently is not only a good thing but is a necessary and natural trend reversal. The emphasis on competition over the years has turned kata into a performance of combinations of basics with little or no study of applications whatsoever. I am in no way suggesting that kata practice in this manner, doesn't have any benefits but as we all probably suspected, there is a lot more to it than has been conveyed. In my opinion, kata and kumite practice are one in the same and should be treated as such within the curriculum. The established JKA basics, kumite, kata curriculum, doesn't lend itself well to this idea.

As to whether the applications being developed are original, I don't think that it matters. The katas were originally formulated from a mixture of styles and as such, the term "original" doesn't really apply. What is more important is that whatever the application is, that it passes all of the rules that make it a good application. In the end, pressure testing during kumite will weed out the ones that don't work.

KG

[swdw]

My instructor is very big into bunkai. On our tests we have to give the bunkai for certain moves in our katas. You never know what area of the kata you will asked about, so we have to know the bunkai for all the moves. Its alot to remember sometimes, esp. with certain moves possible being a solution for different situations but Im glad he teaches us to understand that aspect of it. I have learned a great deal from it.

This is where I think we have to be careful when it comes to bunkai, and self-defense training in general. If you get overloaded with solutions, then you can get trapped into trying to think of which one you should do, whereas if you know fewer, and can apply them to different moves across the board, it can serve you better, because they will be easier to recall.

Let me add something here.

Prior to WWII Miyagi taught only 2-3 kata per person. After WWII, he taught all the kata.

Here's my take on this which is worth whatever you wish to think.

Kata bunkai- you should understand all the basic level bunkai for a kata so you can teach the underlying principles and applications to your students. However you should pick only 2 kata and train the bunkai until they become so automatic and ingrained that they are your "preconditioned response". This cuts down on the "paralysis of possibilities" many people talk about.

Then why learn the other kata and bunkai? Because different kata and bunkai work well with different body types and personality types and they should be picked to match the individual. To teach them, you need to learn them.

That said, let me go on to another issue with bunkai- teaching specific DETAILED responses to attacks. I have friends that are taught a different response for each of these-, right straight head punch, right roundhouse punch, right straight chest punch, then another response for each of these with the left hand. Now we have 6 possibilities for 6 attacks. Yet it turns out in Goju, when a jodan or chudan uke are done correctly the cover all these attacks. And even better, you don't have to worry about which hand you "block" with. There are small simple adjustments your body will make after just a few minutes that allow you to use one technique against all of these. Proof is in the pudding and I've had white belts with only a few months of training instinctively make these adjustments.

The K.I.S.S. principle IS very important in bunkai.

As an example, I posted a short off the cuff video on you tube for a discussion at the Iain Abernathy site. Watch both parts and you'll see one move used against a host of different threats rather than many counters to many attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/swdw973

Definetly. One of the associated problems with bunkai is the reliance on one move flowing into another based on your opponents reaction to the previous. If the opponents reaction is different to the one your expecting, the next move wont work and all of a sudden that combo you practiced over and over in class doesn't have the desired effect. Bunkai often doesn't lead to responses appropriate to body positioning etc. It may be the correct response to the initial attack, but doesn't take into account the possible responses from that point on.

Yes and no, this is also something that has become an issue from a lack of understanding. If the sequence depends on the person countering with a certain tachnique you are right. However, if the sequence is reliant upon the IBR, or instictive body reaction to what you're doing which is an unthought natural response to the stimuli you've imposed, then it allows you to capitalize on that. For example, when a person is overbalanced in one direction, there will be an instictive reaction to regain their base. Capitalizing on this just makes things go from bad to worse for them. However, if you are counting on a kick punch combo for a series to work- you are programming something that may be downright useless. The other time a sequence is usable is when a move puts your opponent in a position for the next move, even if he doesn't want to be there. A series needs to be set up so it "runs the table" on your oppoenet. I.E. just like a pool shark each move sets you up for the next move, yet if something goes amiss, your opponent is not left in a position to take a shot. This allows you to go right into another series while he's resetting.

Both of these are realistic and achievable and I know of several people who've used such approaches that are in jobs where they deal with issue regularly (bouncers, prison guards, police on the street, etc). All of them have been able to use different series they've learned because they were based on the principles above.

Keeping in mind that 99.9% of the time you'll be dealing with an untrained opponent (although they may have street experience), basing a series on the IBR is fun (for the karateka) and very useful. Many times they can be used against trained individuals too.

At most of the Wado Ryu dojos that I have trained at, Bunkai has not been at the top of the agenda as far as Kata is concerned.

Since you are Wado ryu, I highly recommend Iain Abernethy's site, as he's a Wado practitioner also.

The bunkai i have personally trained and have been exposed to via the internet has not left a good impression in my mind.

It all sounds great in theory, looks good and seems to work well against non-resisting opponents. However it lacks alot of important elements that would make it applicable in real situations.

I think bunkai as a whole is too exaggerated and overly complicated. People focus on making advanced-looking meanings (which was the original phrase used, "imi" in Japanese) rather than truly concentrating on basics, other than lip service. As a result, you have this modern infusion of meanings that only "work" if you change the movements dramatically, which largely makes doing the kata pointless if you aren't going to fight in the same manner in which you train. It is far better for you to become advanced at punching, blocking, and kicking than to collect "advanced" meanings behind kata.

A couple years ago I would have agreed across the board with both of you, but there are some people out there who teach simple, practical, and effective bunkai that come straight from the move in the kata. They are still few and far between, yet they do exist. Plus some very "old school" people are starting to share what they were taught in okinawa which incorporate things people who've been taught an incomplete system find a breath of fresh air. Some of the older guys are deciding that keeping "secrets" is causing a decline in karate, and they'd be right.

Those who've been taught a complete art go "so what?", but you need to remember there's probably less than 3% of the teachers out there that have the whole kit and kaboodle. So students of the 97% are now searching because they KNOW something is missing.

[kgcobra320]

Prior to WWII Miyagi taught only 2-3 kata per person. After WWII, he taught all the kata.

Most MA masters from way back only knew 3-5 katas.

Kata bunkai- you should understand all the basic level bunkai for a kata so you can teach the underlying principles and applications to your students. However you should pick only 2 kata and train the bunkai until they become so automatic and ingrained that they are your "preconditioned response". This cuts down on the "paralysis of possibilities" many people talk about.

I agree completely. Minimizing the number of techniques is one of the rules that I was reffering to.

Then why learn the other kata and bunkai? Because different kata and bunkai work well with different body types and personality types and they should be picked to match the individual. To teach them, you need to learn them.

If you read the personal histories of various MA masters you will find that body type was the main driver in determining style/kata to focus on.

That said, let me go on to another issue with bunkai- teaching specific DETAILED responses to attacks. I have friends that are taught a different response for each of these-, right straight head punch, right roundhouse punch, right straight chest punch, then another response for each of these with the left hand. Now we have 6 possibilities for 6 attacks. Yet it turns out in Goju, when a jodan or chudan uke are done correctly the cover all these attacks. And even better, you don't have to worry about which hand you "block" with. There are small simple adjustments your body will make after just a few minutes that allow you to use one technique against all of these. Proof is in the pudding and I've had white belts with only a few months of training instinctively make these adjustments.

Applications that are not mistake prone, another good rule.

The K.I.S.S. principle IS very important in bunkai.

Yes and no, this is also something that has become an issue from a lack of understanding. If the sequence depends on the person countering with a certain tachnique you are right. However, if the sequence is reliant upon the IBR, or instictive body reaction to what you're doing which is an unthought natural response to the stimuli you've imposed, then it allows you to capitalize on that. For example, when a person is overbalanced in one direction, there will be an instictive reaction to regain their base. Capitalizing on this just makes things go from bad to worse for them. However, if you are counting on a kick punch combo for a series to work- you are programming something that may be downright useless. The other time a sequence is usable is when a move puts your opponent in a position for the next move, even if he doesn't want to be there. A series needs to be set up so it "runs the table" on your oppoenet. I.E. just like a pool shark each move sets you up for the next move, yet if something goes amiss, your opponent is not left in a position to take a shot. This allows you to go right into another series while he's resetting.

Keeping it simple and utilizing instinctive body reaction, two more excellent rules to follow.

Here are a few more:

Utilize major motor motions. (works during the adrenaline rush)

Capitalize on repitition.

Works on left or right side.

Works on most body types.

Works from natural of shortened stance.

KG

Edited May 15, 2007 by kgcobra320

[Shorin Ryuu]

A couple years ago I would have agreed across the board with both of you, but there are some people out there who teach simple, practical, and effective bunkai that come straight from the move in the kata. They are still few and far between, yet they do exist. Plus some very "old school" people are starting to share what they were taught in okinawa which incorporate things people who've been taught an incomplete system find a breath of fresh air. Some of the older guys are deciding that keeping "secrets" is causing a decline in karate, and they'd be right.

Those who've been taught a complete art go "so what?", but you need to remember there's probably less than 3% of the teachers out there that have the whole kit and kaboodle. So students of the 97% are now searching because they KNOW something is missing.

If you read some more of my posts or in between the lines, you would see that I arrogantly consider myself one of the lucky few who have an instructor that does so. I'm not saying that to be confrontational, but because you seem to misunderstand where I was coming from.

In some cases, there may have been secrets. I'm more inclined to believe that many generations of students never even asked. For that matter, I'm somewhat skeptical when I hear about "secrets" in general.

[kgcobra320]

In some cases, there may have been secrets. I'm more inclined to believe that many generations of students never even asked. For that matter, I'm somewhat skeptical when I hear about "secrets" in general.

Or maybe there were generations of instructors that failed to create the proper learning enviroment, in which asking a question would be well recieved.

KG

[swdw]

If you read some more of my posts or in between the lines, you would see that I arrogantly consider myself one of the lucky few who have an instructor that does so. I'm not saying that to be confrontational, but because you seem to misunderstand where I was coming from.

Actually, I did pick up on that, so I said what I did more as a reminder that other people are not in your shoes. Take zanshin as an example. Little if any bunkai taught and there may be no better teacher in the area depending on where someone lives. So for these people, Iaian Abernethy and others are a great resource. Why? Because he and some others actually uses what they teach in real life.

So for us fortunate few who've had good instruction, it seems we should try and help those earnestly seeking the heart of karate by pointing them to resources that can benefit them.

Just making blanket statements like bunkai on the internet has not left a good impression (quoting cross) doesn't help.

If finding and then pointing someone to a resource that is good keeps them from getting hurt one day, we've done something beneficial with our knowledge because we used it to make sure those seeking help were sent to a resource where they learned something useful.

[Zanshin]

At most of the Wado Ryu dojos that I have trained at, Bunkai has not been at the top of the agenda as far as Kata is concerned.

Since you are Wado ryu, I highly recommend Iain Abernethy's site, as he's a Wado practitioner also.

Hi Guys,

Just to clarify a point about Wado Kata and "Bunkai".

It is not disregarded but generally, it is taught slightly differently. The process in a traditional Dojo is broken down into three stages:-

Kaisetsu = Application

Where individual techniques are broken out of the Kata and performed against an opponent, but still in the correct "basic" manner.

Kaishaku = Interpretation

Where the moves are less formal, more relaxed and "realistic" according to the scenario in question.

Bunkai = Analysis

Where the Karate-ka can be "creative" and inventive, and ultimately make the techniques in the Kata more applicable to combat.

Generally speaking however, it is my understanding, that in the three major Wado Groups (of which I don't know which one Mr Abernethy belongs to), "Bunkai" in the "Okinawan" sense, is not prescriptively taught.

In Wado I think its more about how you apply the core elements of the Wado style, which, being based in "Yoshin Ryu" are about efficiency of movement and using this to your advantage.

Wado Karate-ka and Okinawan Karate-ka are never going to agree with one and other on the subject of Bunkai, but there is a common ground there really.

All Karate styles have a slightly different way of operating to one and another, and as Karate-ka we should respect that.

[GOM]

Trying to create your own bunkai for particular moves without a teacher or mentor guidance is sure to create a bigger problem.

I think that this depends on your level of understanding of the art. Somewhere, someone started this whole thing, and who knows if he had someone teach it to him? Maybe they worked as a group to come up with it. It is hard to tell. However, through proper experimentation, and using practical approaches to ways that you can be attacked, and thus formulate practical defenses, could be a great way to learn what works and what does not.

What someone else teaches you may not work for you, so you may need to explore what does and doesn't work for you.

Without a guide, there is no way to tell which moves from kata are for show, training and application.

Not every move found in kata are "bunkai".