Using Kata in a Fight - Keep It Simple

[Fish]

This concept of osae sounds interesting - I've not come across it before. Which part of pinan shodan contains the press down? Which parts of Kushanku?

[bushido_man96]

It can be held, but usually is allowed to swing. You ask a very valid question, as many people can confuse the pushing sensation with penetration. Hitting the bag usually takes place under the watchful eye of our instructor or more senior students, as they are more readily able to spot such things. You can also tell by observing how the bag responds. They key in hitting the bag is hitting just like the bag wasn't there and let it all flow naturally. When you get too carried away with hitting the bag, there is a tendency to either push it or to muscle it.

this is something that I've noticed with most karate students, no matter what the style, the inability to hit an object withoug pushing. In all the schools I've learned at there were only a few students who understood what it meant to hit an object and not "show off" and move the bag around or knock it over (wavemaster, BOB, etc.)

Like I've been thinking for the past few weeks, you're quite lucky to have found Nakata sensei. Someone who truly understands power.

I can see what you are saying here. There is a fine line between hitting the object with penetration, and stopping the technique at the right time, and in pushing through (or muscling through) the target. As with anything, proper feedback, both by watching the bag, complimented by verbal feedback from the instructor, can help to achieve the proper execution.

I do think that swinging bags would be able to provide a more appropriate visual feedback than a standing bag would. With time and experience, however, you would be able to "feel" if it is right.

[Shorin Ryuu]

This concept of osae sounds interesting - I've not come across it before. Which part of pinan shodan contains the press down? Which parts of Kushanku?

Osae is present in every movement of the kata. The way we do Pinan Shodan, we do not have a "press down" before our finger thrust. We just have the standard osae (in this case, with the knife hand forearm block) before we thrust.

[Andrew_Patton]

Osae is present in every movement of the kata. The way we do Pinan Shodan, we do not have a "press down" before our finger thrust. We just have the standard osae (in this case, with the knife hand forearm block) before we thrust.

well, that's exactly as I meant to say.. it's interesting to note that when I see some of the higher up and more understanding students block they attacking limb always moves and so does the attacker, oppening them wide up for the counter strike... when others do it though, the arm is hit, the attacker stays on balance, and the blow is less effective.

Would this be a decent explanation of the concept of Osae?

[Andrew_Patton]

So I spent a few hours constructing a canvas bag that's currently hanging in my garage, filled with 20 lbs of sand (could hold at least 60... but that's really bad math on my part, oops) and I have to say, this is probably the best makiwara or bag that I've hit, period. It feels much more natural to use than the normal post type makiwara, gives better feedback, and tells me my blocks suck. Overall, makes me realize I need some good training with this methodology (walk-in drill is quite odd to me) BUT, it's a great tool to have.

Probably the best bag hanging in my garage.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Osae is present in every movement of the kata. The way we do Pinan Shodan, we do not have a "press down" before our finger thrust. We just have the standard osae (in this case, with the knife hand forearm block) before we thrust.

well, that's exactly as I meant to say.. it's interesting to note that when I see some of the higher up and more understanding students block they attacking limb always moves and so does the attacker, oppening them wide up for the counter strike... when others do it though, the arm is hit, the attacker stays on balance, and the blow is less effective.

Would this be a decent explanation of the concept of Osae?

It may be, but osae also deals more with how you transition between movements rather than the individual techniques themselves. The goal in our blocking is to destroy the opponent even with a block. In other words, not just a deflection or an off-balancing technique, but to incapacitate him with the block itself. When we deflect, we deflect. When we block, we destroy.

From what I've seen of Yamashita in videos, he does not display osae. Is there any recent footage of him around?

So I spent a few hours constructing a canvas bag that's currently hanging in my garage, filled with 20 lbs of sand (could hold at least 60... but that's really bad math on my part, oops) and I have to say, this is probably the best makiwara or bag that I've hit, period. It feels much more natural to use than the normal post type makiwara, gives better feedback, and tells me my blocks suck. Overall, makes me realize I need some good training with this methodology (walk-in drill is quite odd to me) BUT, it's a great tool to have.

Probably the best bag hanging in my garage.

What I like about the post makiwara is that you must hold the punch in place with kime and your body weight; their is no snapping back. Whenever Chibana Sensei would hit the makiwara, his whole body weight would sink into it with his kime and it wouldn't push his arm back at all.

As for blocking, Fumio Nagaishi (once an American student of Chibana Chosin and a very close student of Taira Shinken, being one of the most senior Ryukyu Kobudo practitioners worldwide) did devise a blocking makiwara out of bundled bamboo. He probably should've patented it because it is sold in a lot of places nowadays. Interestingly enough, as far as I know (granted, I haven't done too much research into it), this kind of blocking makiwara wasn't in existence on Okinawa until he made it. It is essentially a lot of bamboo bundled together on the top and bottom. I saw some for sale at the Shureido main store.

I like closing out my hitting practice with the sand bag, but it is much easier to get a lot more repetitions in with the heavy bag, since the sand bag hurts after a little while.

[P.A.L]

As for pressing concept, in our dojo we look at it as ; pressing the space and pressing by technique. Jamming into a technique by moving forward is pressing the space, like jamming into a long rang mawashi geri or axe kick, or a haymaker. In short distance we apply pressing by adding a forward component to each defensive techniques. A common example, in passai kata(not including tomari version like Matsubayashi ryu) there are three shuto down blocks, so the punch comes we go over the punch and shuto block then we jam in and second shuto block … in the first move adding a forward component to the technique, we drive the shuto block into liver like a spear thrust, this is a press by technique.

Against the idea of pressing we have the blending, which many martial artists use successfully against pressing strategy. Obviously there is no clear border in between, most of the styles use a mixture of both.

[Shorin Ryuu]

As for pressing concept, in our dojo we look at it as ; pressing the space and pressing by technique. Jamming into a technique by moving forward is pressing the space, like jamming into a long rang mawashi geri or axe kick, or a haymaker. In short distance we apply pressing by adding a forward component to each defensive techniques. A common example, in passai kata(not including tomari version like Matsubayashi ryu) there are three shuto down blocks, so the punch comes we go over the punch and shuto block then we jam in and second shuto block … in the first move adding a forward component to the technique, we drive the shuto block into liver like a spear thrust, this is a press by technique.

Against the idea of pressing we have the blending, which many martial artists use successfully against pressing strategy. Obviously there is no clear border in between, most of the styles use a mixture of both.

Interesting. In terms of semantics, there is some similarity to the way you use the term "press" and the way we do, but there are also some differences.

For us, osae is more like pressing forward with the body weight in all movements, even in those going backwards. This osae is used perhaps in a similar manner that you describe as pressing the space, only we do it at all distances. Chibana Sensei felt one must always crowd or jam the opponent. However, there is a significant difference between osae (press) and osu (push).

We don't necessarily add any more forward movement to a blocking technique in short distance as opposed to any other distance (we tend to fight at very close distance anyway, though). For us, the amount of forward momentum added with the arm would really be more dependent on the technique (thrust, strike, etc.) and how it is executed rather than the distance. At any rate, all techniques are given the forward movement more from body weight anyway. Rather than being interested in jamming via technique (since we jam via movement), we are more concerned with penetration via technique upon execution.

I don't feel like I've explained the above very well. It still seems a little off to me. Sorry.

[bushido_man96]

Very interesting points on the pressing with technique and pressing with movement. Can you give me an idea or two on how I might be able to apply this myself?

[mantis.style]

You have no idea how "chinese" osae sounds in your description. Have you ever seen Fukian White Crane or Southern Mantis forms? You, being a traditionally trained Shorin Ryu guy, would be surprised at what you see.