Using Kata in a Fight - Keep It Simple

[Shorin Ryuu]

Putting power into it IS certainly a good thing, but isn't being able to practice that move with a partner (or at least on a bag) better?

We do use a heavy bag and hanging makiwara (which is in reality a 30 lb bag of sand). For walk in drills, we also employ handpads. Walk in drills are just as the name implies, we practice closing distance, opening the opponent, and delivering a strike. It is my personal belief that you cannot learn Chibana Sensei's methodology without practicing hitting something. At the same time, simply just hitting the bag without a clear direction of what needs to be done or for endurance purposes is not what we are all about.

For instance, there are a ton of karate moves that hardly anyone does because everyone performs it in the kata and then forgets it.

I am not concerned about people that willingly do kata and then knowingly deny themselves or give up on the idea of even learning any fighting applications from it. Just because they waste their time doesn't mean I'll waste mine. They would probably be better off not doing kata altogether. Of course, they probably think I'm the one wasting my time.

ShorinRyuu, I have one question, I know all about makiwara training for strikes, punches, kicks, shuto, etc. But do you work blocks on Makiwara also, or just on the heavy bag?

Our hanging makiwara is better suited for working blocks. I will admit we practice striking the makiwara/bag more than we do blocking it, although that isn't to say we never do it. It is common for the strong block to follow after the person has developed a strong punch since some of the concepts are the same.

[Andrew_Patton]

I take it your hanging makiwara is a canvas bag then? Seems like I might have a purpose for that extra canvas I have laying around then...

Anyways, the walk in drills you speak of, are they all the traditional thru-step? (i.e. start in zenkutsu dachi, step feet together step forward with your 'back' foot) I do agree, you cannot learn karate (not just the chibana method) without hitting something, that's why makiwara and other equipment were widely implemented 'back in the day'.

And, final question, what exactly do you mean by 'opening' the opponent? i.e. raking the arm away, feinting, etc.

(It seems like I might have to make a trip to hawaii sometime in the future.)

[Shorin Ryuu]

I take it your hanging makiwara is a canvas bag then? Seems like I might have a purpose for that extra canvas I have laying around then...

Anyways, the walk in drills you speak of, are they all the traditional thru-step? (i.e. start in zenkutsu dachi, step feet together step forward with your 'back' foot) I do agree, you cannot learn karate (not just the chibana method) without hitting something, that's why makiwara and other equipment were widely implemented 'back in the day'.

And, final question, what exactly do you mean by 'opening' the opponent? i.e. raking the arm away, feinting, etc.

(It seems like I might have to make a trip to hawaii sometime in the future.)

Yes, it is a canvas type bag. It obviously weighs far less than our heavy bag (a 150 lb bag of sand would be quite something), but really ensures a painful lesson if your fist is not formed properly.

The walk in is started in a natural stance and done with a natural stride, feet pointing outwards and stepping heel to toe. We'll usually start off anywhere between 5 and 10 steps away and walk in at a controlled pace in time with breathing, speeding up only towards the end. It is important not to walk at a set rhythm too early, which allows your opponent to time you, so most of the walking is done very naturally. It is very hard to stand there and wait for your opponent with the utmost concentration. The walk in allows you to control distance as you move in and in some ways, psyche out the opponent and not leave time for you to psyche out yourself.

When nearing the opponent, the second to the last step covers distance as we osae (press) with one arm, either stepping into a neko dachi, kihon dachi, or "whatever-the-heck dachi that is when we do a backfist". As the weight flows forward, we continue the press and clear/grab the opponent's arm out of the way. The other hand punches (or backfists) as the weight drops down and forward while the foot reaches whatever relevant position to achieve the proper stance. Done this way, the backfist is actually one of the strongest moves in Shorin and can be a killing blow (I've noticed many people do not think of it in this way). It is bad that the name eludes me as to what stance the backfist ends up in, but the rear leg shuffles up behind the front foot as the weight goes forward. As you can tell, we (I) sometimes have the Okinawan habit of not being so obsessed about technique names and classification. The range between you and the opponent is very close upon completion of the technique, so it is definitely not a "fight at a distance" type of maneuver.

You are probably asking "what is osae"? Osae is actually what made Chibana Sensei's karate so strong. He certainly had devastating techniques, but it was osae that let him close distance without relying on pure speed like most people try to do. It is the art of continually pressing forward upon the opponent in order to jam the opponent (not leaning, though), which is distinct from pushing. Osae should be used in all movement, even when going backwards.

The kihon kata was devised essentially to really emphasize the use of hara (basically center of gravity), osae (the press), and koshi (hips). Most people train in them without any understanding of these particular concepts and their meaning has been lost. These people tend to view them as worthless kata or just wastes of time before moving on to "real kata".

My instructor has written a nice article on osae, and I will ask his permission to share it here. He has actually said he wants me to put out a lot more of his writings. Up until now, he has only been keeping them in our small group of practitioners, but he's a lot more open about it. He just left for Fukuoka to visit Murakami Katsumi (who's been wanting to meet my instructor for about 4 decades...) and I'm going to meet up with him this weekend in Okinawa as we visit a student of his (who happens to be my best friend and who got me into training with Nakata Sensei in the first place). I'm going to hold off delving too deep into this concept of osae until I get back on the 7th of April (I leave the 31st of March). Sadly, even if you knew all the concepts completely, it is something that must be understood physically and it is pretty much impossible to learn via the internet.

If you truly want to take a trip out to Hawaii, please let me know.

[bushido_man96]

Putting power into it IS certainly a good thing, but isn't being able to practice that move with a partner (or at least on a bag) better? I sometimes shadow box (which is a good way to practice), but it is different from actually boxing with someone. For instance, there are a ton of karate moves that hardly anyone does because everyone performs it in the kata and then forgets it.

You make a good point, NightOwl. Partner practice does offer a lot of realism, if you do it properly. However, unless you get into competition, I don't think your friends/partners will let you practice moves on them full-tilt. However, I think you can get a reasonable amount of realism in the techniques when partner training.

Some of the moves done in katas are not done in sparring/two-person work because many times it is more difficult to apply them in a more dynamic, reactive environment, I think.

[bushido_man96]

I like the descriptions of the concepts behind the forms that you mention, Shorin Ryuu (emphasize the use of hara (basically center of gravity), osae (the press), and koshi (hips)). Very nice. I would like to see how you do some of this someday. It sounds very interesting.

[James Bullock]

The kihon kata was devised essentially to really emphasize the use of hara (basically center of gravity), osae (the press), and koshi (hips). Most people train in them without any understanding of these particular concepts and their meaning has been lost. These people tend to view them as worthless kata or just wastes of time before moving on to "real kata".

Shorin,

Excellent posts indeed,

I agree whole heartedly.....the internal principles and dynamics of real kata are unfortunately not addressed and in many cases not known about within the American martial arts world. Your term osae is the same thing as what we call structural forward pressure. The structure and alignment of the body "presses" and creates forward pressure that is far different internally and externally than using the arms or body lean. When the hips are used correctly they act as a "bow" (as in bow and arrow) and can generate an amazing amount of power and speed...not to mention the shock and penetration it delivers upon impact. The hips used in conjunction with the hara or iiten can help you cover a considerable distance seamlessly and with very little effort. The dynamics and principles of movement once understood can be devastating and universal in application.

[Andrew_Patton]

hmm, interesting, I've never encountered a hanging makiwara that's like what you've described, I'm used to the rare rattan or bamboo bundles hanging from the ceiling. My questions are, is the bag just allowed to swing after being struck? and, how do you know you're hitting and not pushing thru the object if it's allowed to swing?

I agree, karate is the kihon kata, I remember sensei Yamashita talking about osae and not leaning but rather; using your hips, pushing out with your feet, etc. But, truth be told, every single one (okay most, not all) of the students, and instructors in this area, have forgotten and don't enforce it... in fact, theres a few with back and hip trouble that hace students who lean and mimic them exactly.

This entire concept would work equally well with fingertip strikes (come to think of it, pinan shodan has the 'pressdown' before the nukite does it not?) along with basically everyother Shorin Ryu strike out there... would this explain all the blocking while stepping forward in our kata?

[Shorin Ryuu]

hmm, interesting, I've never encountered a hanging makiwara that's like what you've described, I'm used to the rare rattan or bamboo bundles hanging from the ceiling. My questions are, is the bag just allowed to swing after being struck? and, how do you know you're hitting and not pushing thru the object if it's allowed to swing?

It can be held, but usually is allowed to swing. You ask a very valid question, as many people can confuse the pushing sensation with penetration. Hitting the bag usually takes place under the watchful eye of our instructor or more senior students, as they are more readily able to spot such things. You can also tell by observing how the bag responds. They key in hitting the bag is hitting just like the bag wasn't there and let it all flow naturally. When you get too carried away with hitting the bag, there is a tendency to either push it or to muscle it.

This entire concept would work equally well with fingertip strikes (come to think of it, pinan shodan has the 'pressdown' before the nukite does it not?) along with basically everyother Shorin Ryu strike out there... would this explain all the blocking while stepping forward in our kata?

That's a pretty good explanation for the way much of it is structured. Karate kata involves not only each technique, but what happens in between each technique as well. Unfortunately, most people hazusu (release) their press (if they even ever had one at all) before transitioning, so there is no osae.

[Andrew_Patton]

That's a pretty good explanation for the way much of it is structured. Karate kata involves not only each technique, but what happens in between each technique as well. Unfortunately, most people hazusu (release) their press (if they even ever had one at all) before transitioning, so there is no osae.

The Osae explanation (which mind you, I have heard) is pretty obvious when looking thru Chibana style kata, even the opening movement of Kihon Shodan involves it, stepping forward with an extended hand, throwing a reverse punch, passai dai includes it, chinto, kusanku, and pinan shodan as I mentioned before (just off the top of my head) Like I said, I've heard this theory and methodology, I just haven't mulled it over to much (or had a chance to train with an instructor like Nakata Sensei)

It can be held, but usually is allowed to swing. You ask a very valid question, as many people can confuse the pushing sensation with penetration. Hitting the bag usually takes place under the watchful eye of our instructor or more senior students, as they are more readily able to spot such things. You can also tell by observing how the bag responds. They key in hitting the bag is hitting just like the bag wasn't there and let it all flow naturally. When you get too carried away with hitting the bag, there is a tendency to either push it or to muscle it.

this is something that I've noticed with most karate students, no matter what the style, the inability to hit an object withoug pushing. In all the schools I've learned at there were only a few students who understood what it meant to hit an object and not "show off" and move the bag around or knock it over (wavemaster, BOB, etc.)

Like I've been thinking for the past few weeks, you're quite lucky to have found Nakata sensei. Someone who truly understands power.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Like I've been thinking for the past few weeks, you're quite lucky to have found Nakata sensei. Someone who truly understands power.

I am always grateful for my luck, which before now, I always used to complain about. He is the reason I moved to Hawaii. Of course, I could think of worse places to move to in order to train with someone.