Using Kata in a Fight - Keep It Simple

[Shorin Ryuu]

Thanks for the reply. I suppose the question is. If this skill is so easily attainable, why arnt we seeing more of it? Why arnt boxers and mma fighters training to knock their opponent over with a single block? Alot of money is at stake for these fighters so i wonder why they arent doing this?

That is because the boxer mentality is completely different. In fact, I've written a large post about this and submitted it as an article for this site. If you can't wait to read it, it is located here: http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/2007/01/paradigm-shift-part-2-boxer-mentality.html

The simple fact of the matter is, Chibana's knowledge and methodology has been lost by a lot of karate practitioners. Itosu's karate (and thus Chibana Sensei's) formed the basis for much of karate today. However, much of it was modified and diluted down. It isn't so much the fault of karate practitioners today as it is the students and teachers of years ago. Furthermore, Chibana Sensei did not interfere too much in the affairs of those students to whom he gave a shihan no menjou (literally, teaching certificate) directly to (Katsuya Miyahira, Shugoro Nakazato, Chozo Nakama, Yuchoku Higa, and Pat Nakata). Therefore, he respected their decisions to take his karate in a more individualized direction if they chose to. My instructor is Pat Nakata, and he chose to keep Chibana's methodology. There are some things he modified, most of them being with Chibana Sensei's exact recommendation and approval, but he has not changed the mechanics of Chibana Sensei's karate.

In other words, this methodology is rare even in the style from which it came from, so it is not surprising whatsoever that you don't see boxers or MMA utilizing the specific types of posture and execution that we do. It would be stranger if in fact they did. As a sidenote, it is hard to do Chibana's methodology with any type of glove on with specific regards to the punching, it relies on a rock hard fist. Even grappling gloves do not allow the kind of fist needed. Of course, his entire methodology covers far more than that, but that is just one example.

This is interesting, but I'm not sure why you say hitting vulnerable areas is a plus rather than essential. I'm not talking about pressure points here. It seems to me common sense that, given a choice between a strike to a hard, well protected area of the body and a strike to a vulnerable area, you choose the latter.

Of course it is always better to hit a vulnerable point rather than a non-vulnerable point. That is why I said it was a plus. But if you can generate penetration, then even hitting a well-protected target will result in the destruction of the opponent. You may think I'm unrealistic in my expectation, but that's okay. Like I've said before, I used to think the same way before. Before you can achieve great power, you must first admit to yourselves its existence. Most people don't seem to even do that.

[P.A.L]

IMO, Sensei Oyama the founder of Kyokushin karate is a better example of this kind of karate compare to sensei chibana.

[Shorin Ryuu]

IMO, Sensei Oyama the founder of Kyokushin karate is a better example of this kind of karate compare to sensei chibana.

I will have to respectfully disagree. Mas Oyama was well-known on Japan for being hardcore, but on Okinawa, it was Chibana Chosin who was recognized for his power and Itosu methodology. I'm not badmouthing Sensei Oyama; I'm saying that this is truly what Chibana Chosin was known for.

There is not much known about Chibana Chosin, especially in the English martial arts community, so your assumption about his fighting characteristics is somewhat justified. He was a very humble man and didn't ever "toot his own horn". At the same time, if you went around most dojo on Okinawa while he was alive, he was greatly respected and considered the foremost authority on karate. As one of the last old-school bushi of Okinawa, he was always visited by masters of other styles and usually good friends with them as well.

Part of Chibana's relative obscurity despite his greatness is due to his great humility. Part of it is also due to his top students being pretty successful and having a large following who focus on them rather than Chibana Sensei. This is definitely not an indictment against them; please do not take it that way. Part of it is that not much is written on him in Japanese martial arts scholarship either. Believe me, I've scoured many of the few sources that do speak of him and much is left out. Fortunately, I now train with a direct student of his, one of the five people directly given a shihan no menjou by Chibana Sensei. My friend and board member Skeptic has embarked on an ambitious project to restore his name in history. I imagine him living now on Okinawa will better facilitate this process. He will be writing more about historical Chibana Sensei while I will be writing more about Chibana Sensei's karate methodology.

Edit: P.A.L., it is exactly this kind of misperception about Chibana Sensei's karate that we are trying to address, especially among those who study Shorin Ryu. Don't take this as an insult or anything; I used to think the exact same way.

As a sidenote, Chibana Sensei never referred to his style as Kobayashi, since he "coined" the term Shorin Ryu to refer to his style. It is my best assessment that the term kobayashi came about later when trying to differentiate between the other styles that came to adopt the Shorin Ryu name and "kobayashi" was just the Japanese pronunciation of the specific kanji that Chibana Sensei chose for "Shorin Ryu". That is why looking at the kanji for "Kobayashi Shorin Ryu" looks like "Shorin Ryu Shorin Ryu".

[P.A.L]

To me there is no misperception, chosin Chibana has been recognized for his karate based on his results and influences enough. He was not the only warrior in Ryukyu, there were many of them and none of them received the proper recognition by the rest of MA community(mostly because they were Okinawan and not Japanese) . Sensei Mabuni learned and taught to the point that he is known to be the greatest karate teacher, sensei Funakushi was not the brightest student of itosu but he introduced the Okinwan Te to the mainland Japan. Miyagi created/organized one of the best styles of karate and one the most influential katas, Sanchin(Miyagi no Sanchin). Motobu beat the … out of a young boxer at his mid 50s and challenged Funakushi's way of doing karate all together. Sensei Oyama challenged the whole martial art community in Japan by his hard core fighting style. they all stamped their names in MA history by some extraordinary act.

Chosin chibana decided to be humble and stayed in his dojo, Hohen Soken ran away to south America. That’s why they were not recognized by outside world to their best potential. I have not seen even one video clip of Chibana , I have archives of Okinawan masters and their pictures and I only have less than 10 pictures from sensei Chibana , and I gotta tell you most of them are in a sloppy, unbalance transitional stances which has no relation with the kind of karate he was teaching. You look at 10 pictures of Motobu sensei , immediately you can feel that he was a scary karate master.

The idea of putting all you got in one punch or kick, to have the spirit of a warrior , to punch over and kick under the idea of pressing these are all great but Sensei chibana was not the first and only advocate. Nobody put his influence below Nakazato or Miyahara and nobody can put him over Itosu or Matsumora, he got his own place in MA history no more no less.

Thanks for the side note , I prefer to call my style of karate shorin ryu and if somebody needs more details I refer to it as kobayashi ryu. I feel uncomfortable using the term “Kobayashi shorin ryu “ for the same reason. But I have to mention that all of my certificates are from Shorinkan.

[NightOwl]

How do you think that kata should be taught then? Should students be able to demonstrate that they know how to apply all of the moves it contains? The problem is that many just memorize it and don't bother going beyond that in my opinion.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I have not seen even one video clip of Chibana , I have archives of Okinawan masters and their pictures and I only have less than 10 pictures from sensei Chibana , and I gotta tell you most of them are in a sloppy, unbalance transitional stances which has no relation with the kind of karate he was teaching.

There is a video out of Chibana Chosin footage that was shot by Clarence Lee. Unfortunately, this footage was taken on a day where Chibana Sensei was so sick that his wife had to help him put his gi on (not to mention the DVD authoring and presentation was disappointing). All the same, it speaks of his incredible will in still performing his kata despite his condition, as he was near death at the time.

We do have some other videos from earlier in his life (which ironically are of better picture quality) and the difference is truly night and day. I cannot speak to which exact pictures you are talking about, so I don't know whether they were truly sloppy stances or not... I don't recall ever seeing any sloppy stance photos of him.

There is a picture set of him doing Patsai Dai in the reprint of Karate Do Taikan while he was in his fifties, a set of him doing Naihanchi Shodan in the previous issue of Classical Fighting arts while he was in his late sixties, a set of him doing Patsai Dai in Murakami Katsumi's "Karatedo to Ryukyu Kobudo" when he was in his seventies (I think), and we have a ton of photos of him performing various kata. At some point, we may release the videos and the photos. I'm just throwing this in there in case you were curious.

Thanks for the side note , I prefer to call my style of karate shorin ryu and if somebody needs more details I refer to it as kobayashi ryu. I feel uncomfortable using the term “Kobayashi shorin ryu “ for the same reason. But I have to mention that all of my certificates are from Shorinkan.

It was quite the refreshing experience when I got rid of all belts, rank and certifications. Nothing personal against Shorinkan, as it is an organization full of dedicated martial artists and wonderful people. It is where I had my "start" and I still have many that I consider friends there. I enjoy the freedom of not even having to go through the motions for ranking and the like.

How do you think that kata should be taught then? Should students be able to demonstrate that they know how to apply all of the moves it contains? The problem is that many just memorize it and don't bother going beyond that in my opinion.

If you understand the kata, you can tell by watching them perform kata and hitting the bag or makiwara. Yes, many do just memorize it or mimic the movements. For them, it is wasted.

[bushido_man96]

How do you think that kata should be taught then? Should students be able to demonstrate that they know how to apply all of the moves it contains? The problem is that many just memorize it and don't bother going beyond that in my opinion.

I try to visualize each technique striking, blocking, or kicking something. Sometimes I am vivid about it. Sometime, I just go with as much power as I can, destroying whatever could be in the way. It may not be right, but it leaves me exhausted, and feeling like I poured all I could into it.

To Shorin Ryuu: I think that all of this information about Chosin Chibana (hope I spelled that right) is very interesting. I love learning new things about the Martial Arts, and I love the history of it as well. If you do put some literature out there, I would love to know about it.

[blackxpress]

Thanks for the reply. I suppose the question is. If this skill is so easily attainable, why arnt we seeing more of it? Why arnt boxers and mma fighters training to knock their opponent over with a single block? Alot of money is at stake for these fighters so i wonder why they arent doing this?

Are you sure they aren't? Boxers and MMA fighters are training to go up against fighters with similar training and skill levels. Every now and then you see a professional fight that ends a few seconds into the first round because one of the fighters missed a block and got K.O.ed. Most of the time the fight lasts longer because the fighters are skilled enough to block the knockout strike. In a self defense situation on the street it's unlikely that your opponent will be a trained martial artist. Think, for example, what would happen if some untrained street punk started a fight with Chuck Liddell.

[NightOwl]

How do you think that kata should be taught then? Should students be able to demonstrate that they know how to apply all of the moves it contains? The problem is that many just memorize it and don't bother going beyond that in my opinion.

I try to visualize each technique striking, blocking, or kicking something. Sometimes I am vivid about it. Sometime, I just go with as much power as I can, destroying whatever could be in the way. It may not be right, but it leaves me exhausted, and feeling like I poured all I could into it.

To Shorin Ryuu: I think that all of this information about Chosin Chibana (hope I spelled that right) is very interesting. I love learning new things about the Martial Arts, and I love the history of it as well. If you do put some literature out there, I would love to know about it.

Putting power into it IS certainly a good thing, but isn't being able to practice that move with a partner (or at least on a bag) better? I sometimes shadow box (which is a good way to practice), but it is different from actually boxing with someone. For instance, there are a ton of karate moves that hardly anyone does because everyone performs it in the kata and then forgets it.

[Andrew_Patton]

I'm going to have to fully agree with ShorinRyuu on this entire topic, the fact of the matter is, if you aren't punching, kicking or blocking like you do in your kata you haven't begun to understand Karate fully.

I also wish to state that they are pictures of (I know there's others but can only remember one name) Motobu Sensei working drills with a partner, or preparing, and his fighting stance has one hand up, almost like a middle block, and his other hand is on his hip in the "retracted" position... a far cry from the typical 'hands up, chin down' stance used in most karate schools.

ShorinRyuu, I have one question, I know all about makiwara training for strikes, punches, kicks, shuto, etc. But do you work blocks on Makiwara also, or just on the heavy bag?