A true black belt? or a fake?

[quinteros1963]

I watched a fight last night that featured a guy who was a black belt in BJJ and sandan in Shotokan losing via submission to a guy with a purple belt in BJJ and ZERO rank in karate. What does that mean? I've said it before if you can roll with a blackbelt then in my eyes you are. Who cares if he doesn't have a certicate from association X?

[still kicking]

quinteros1963 wrote:

Who cares if he doesn't have a certicate from association X?

Well, at the risk of sounding reduntant, especially in TMA, a black belt isn't just about winning fights, it signifies a comprehensive understanding of the curriculum, and the ability to pass it along. In arts that are predominantly fighting, being able to win fights might be adequate to teach others how to fight, but when there are lots of kata, one step routines, bunkai, maybe kobudo, etc. involved, then you have to know those well enough to teach them. IMO.

[still kicking]

I decided to go back and re-read the whole thread, and found this really old quote (from 2007) that might help explain my position on this topic. Quoting ps1:

If a person can play Motzart (sic) on the piano, but received no formal instruction, does that make them any less a piano player?

To me, creating one's own style, and self-conferring a black belt, is akin to the above mentioned musician creating his or her own university, then granting him or herself a degree in musicology. Yeah, maybe they can play piano real nice, but are lacking the scaffolding provided by an academic study of music history, theory, etc. Even if they have picked up some of that on their own, there are things you get from interacting with classmates and other scholars, and ongoing feedback from professors, that can provide far more depth and breadth of understanding. The degree means that an institution that is recognized and respected in society acknowledges that you have attained sufficient knowledge to have attained the degree. Maybe the person mentioned above just want to play piano, that's fine, but it seems clear to me that the degree is bogus!

[bushido_man96]

I think society has placed on many of us a pressure that if there is not any kind of a degree to a person's name, then they aren't legitimate. This just isn't the case all the time. I do agree that going through the "university" learning process can be very beneficial, but, its not the end-all, be-all. If someone is a prodigy at the piano, then they are, and call them what they are, they are GOOD. Those who spend years to get degrees, only to find out they aren't as smart as they thought, or find others that are smarter in their field, but with less "schooling," should not be bitter or jealous. They should take the opportunity to learn.

Just today on FB, a friend of mine was being interviewed by a parent looking for a place for their kid to train MMA (I think they were a teenager). After asking my friend if they had a college degree, and my friend saying no, the parent said they wanted their kid to learn MMA from an instructor with a university degree, and would look elsewhere. Now what kind of sense does that really make? How many MMA degrees are running around out there?

[still kicking]

I agree with everything you said, Bushidoman. There are plenty of educated idiots and knowledgeable self-made people of all stripes. I just think that if someone is good at what they do, they should just be good at it, but not confer fake degrees or meaningless credentials upon themselves. In some fields, though, the credential is a necessary prerequisite to obtain licensure. The degree, along with a certain number of supervised hours and post-graduate training, and passing tests, is supposed to demonstrate a degree of proficiency in the field, as judged by others in the field. I tend to think that in martial arts, recognition from an organization that one respects is worth something. Clearly there are many people who are good at what they do without this, but sadly, there are many more who are not nearly as special as they seem to think they are. In my opinion, holding rank in a respected organization shows that others who are well advanced in the art agree with me that I am indeed special. In any case, I would argue that if someone is truly secure in his/her abilities, they would not need to make up an entirely meaningless and out of context credential to prove it. That having been said... I once had a college professor who wrote a letter to the editor of a local newspaper. It was a very well articulated and knowledgeable letter on a topic that was closely related to his field, but he signed his name without using the PhD, and just allowed his words and thoughts to stand on their own. I really respected that.

[still kicking]

And should have added to the end of my previous post -- he had still jumped through all the hoops to get the PhD!

[sensei8]

I watched a fight last night that featured a guy who was a black belt in BJJ and sandan in Shotokan losing via submission to a guy with a purple belt in BJJ and ZERO rank in karate. What does that mean? I've said it before if you can roll with a blackbelt then in my eyes you are. Who cares if he doesn't have a certicate from association X?

What it means to me is that not everyone can win every time no matter the knowledge, experience, and/or rank. We're martial artists, not supermen/woman, and in that, we're all beatable for whatever the reason(s) may or might not be at that moment.

[sensei8]

I think society has placed on many of us a pressure that if there is not any kind of a degree to a person's name, then they aren't legitimate. This just isn't the case all the time. I do agree that going through the "university" learning process can be very beneficial, but, its not the end-all, be-all. If someone is a prodigy at the piano, then they are, and call them what they are, they are GOOD. Those who spend years to get degrees, only to find out they aren't as smart as they thought, or find others that are smarter in their field, but with less "schooling," should not be bitter or jealous. They should take the opportunity to learn.

Just today on FB, a friend of mine was being interviewed by a parent looking for a place for their kid to train MMA (I think they were a teenager). After asking my friend if they had a college degree, and my friend saying no, the parent said they wanted their kid to learn MMA from an instructor with a university degree, and would look elsewhere. Now what kind of sense does that really make? How many MMA degrees are running around out there?

Not many and if they were abundant, they [any MA degree from a university] would be of no more value than any MA rank. They'd be under the same magnifying glass as any MA rank; a MA degree from this university isn't the same from that university.

The most noted MAists around the world have only had their MA ranks and no university degrees to back them up, not that a university degree would've added to their knowledge/rank.

"I've a Masters in [Fill in the blank] with a minor in [Fill in the blank], along with a Godan in [Fill in the blank]." I would respectfully inform this person that while you're platitudes are impressive, and it's obvious that you can be taught, but...CAN YOU TEACH?

[bushido_man96]

Credentials are great to have. No doubt there. But sometimes, instead of trying to dig up someone's credentials, look instead at their body of work. It will likely speak volumes.

Still kicking: I agree that it is not necessary to confer some credential on oneself; like the black belt the thread is about. I don't disagree there. Instead of trying to confer rank on himself, this is one of those times where he should let his body of work speak for itself.

[quinteros1963]

Credentials are great to have. No doubt there. But sometimes, instead of trying to dig up someone's credentials, look instead at their body of work. It will likely speak volumes.

I agree! Sensei 8 says "the Proof is on the floor!" Rank is relative.