Karate not being the choice for self defence?

[cross]

.. plus sparring in a low stance is good for building muscle. In a real situation you wouldn't necessarily want to drop into a deep low Zenkutz, but you will have more power and speed in your legs

There are much better ways to build muscle in the legs, stance training will do it, to a point, but then resistance is required. Sparring is the only thing that comes close to "real situations" in most schools (alot of the sparring that goes on doesnt comes close to reality but..) so doing a long stance during this crucial part of training just so you might gain some leg strength is a little odd IMO.

and in a street situation your opponent should tire easily before you.

Thats not something id count on.

[Cheradenine]

Let me rephrase - MIGHT tire easily before you. You cannot afford to count on anything.

Resistance training is obviously more benificial to muscle building. I was giving one example as to why you would practice a low stance in free sparring - basics and kata both use low stances and in a formal dojo Jiyu situation it would also carry on through as a continuation of the martial art. As you say, dojo sparring is nothing like fighting on the street, and it doesn't pretend to be; this should be made obvious to the student.

[username8517]

Its effectiveness really depends on the instructor. Some are more serious than others when it comes to sparring, contact, and practical application. Also, it's important to make sure your training includes some ground skills. You don't have to be obsessive about it, just be comfortable being on the ground and learn how to work back to your feet.

I agree with this statement 100% But if your gut feeling is that you're not getting what you want out of the style, then you should start looking for other venues.

[EclecticFighter]

Hello,

I'm 15 years old and i've been practising Shotokan karate since i was 7 years old or so.

I've seen some Jeet Kune Do videos last night along with some Bruce Lee footage, and i just loved it, which pretty much left me in confuse.

Is Karate a bad choice for self defence?

Not at all. Self defence is mostly about how you react, not how you punch and kick or grab. If you know how to attack/defend, all you need to train is how you react. If your sensei cannot teach it to you, all you have to do is take a short class in self-defence. A good self-defence class will mostly concentrate on the psychological aspect, i.e. how to react and react fast.

In kumite, you're allways in the low fighting stance, and to be honest, I dont know how that would work in a real fight.

In karate, the only punch you ever really use is the "geyagotsoki" (i know that's not how you spell it) but in Jeet Kune Do it's so much more than that, and the defence techniques in Karate are pretty much just blocks and are nothing compared in the ones in Jeet Kune Do.

Well, in my case I mostly do kizami tsuki and kicks in combat and I don't do much block. So it's mostly a matter of dojo, instructor and your personal style. If you only do gyaku tsuki in combat it's because you have not practiced the other techniques enough to be at ease with them.

I just can't imagine myself in a real fight using my Karate teachings, but i dont feel the same when it comes to Jeet Kune Do.

If you suddenly end up in a real fight you will either forget all your training or do what you practiced the most because it became automatic. You will not suddenly do Jeet Kune Do stuff because you never trained in that art in the first place.

Well, don't expect to learn everything you need to know in your dojo. I, like you, felt that my shotokan karate was inadequate. I didn't feel my technique was deficient, but I felt I didn't hit hard enough. So I started to train also at home on the makiwara and do one-arm pushups and one-leg squats. We don't do this in dojo but it took me only two weeks to be able to accomplish them. So can you. If you see something interesting in another martial art, study how it is done and try it in dojo during sparring. Sparring in dojo is about experimenting, right?

I also felt I was not very good against takedown and doing takedown. So I am looking how others are doing it, for example in MMA fights. Each time I find something I am looking for, I study it and experiment it in dojo.

Learning in martial arts is not just about waiting for your sensei to show it to you. Sometimes, your sensei doesn't teach something because he doesn't have time (there's too much else to show to the group) or he simply doesn't know it. You have to search for yourself too.

In short, don't feel too bad, you are not alone in this situation. Always question yourself, it's a sure sign you are looking to improve and become a better MA.

[marie curie]

Its effectiveness really depends on the instructor. Some are more serious than others when it comes to sparring, contact, and practical application. Also, it's important to make sure your training includes some ground skills. You don't have to be obsessive about it, just be comfortable being on the ground and learn how to work back to your feet.

I think this is a good point. The traditional karate that I did as a younger person may not be the best way to fight in the street, but there are many things that I learned to my street-fighting benefit. Plus, it wasn't really geared toward street fighting- more competition sparring.

Maybe it's time you switched martial arts for a while, or at least martial arts teachers, just to have a different- more self-defense oriented experience.

[shotokanbeginner]

I'm too lazy too read through all the comments to see if this has already been said but the best example I can think of for the use of low stances in forms and basics is similar to the spartans. They ran with rocks on their back so that in races or combat they'd be that much faster becuase there would no longer be all that extra weight. the deep stances are I think used in a much similar way. Being able to do it from that low deep stance for a kick should make it much easier to kick from a more natural stance, and with more force. The stance can also teach you a ton about hip connection and connection to the ground which is equally important form maximizing speed and power.

Kumite for the most part I find isn't super important, it's more like a game of tag than a fight.

[James Bullock]

In my personal opinion it is the person that makes the style not the other way around.

I have seen Karate guys that can defend themselves for real. I have seen reality based self defense guys that couldn't fight their way out of a dry paper bag let alone a wet one. I have also see the opposite of the above as well.

Its all in how you train what you do.

I teach reality based self defense and I teach traditional karate. The difference in the way I teach GoJu is that I use realistic drills and scenarios the same way I teach the RBSD curriculum. Those that are only concerned with survival I teach RBSD. Those that want an art I teach GoJu with combative drills so they can learn to use the art to defend themselves as well.

[Ottman]

Lot's of good stuff in this thread.

I hope I can sum some things up.

First off, Jeet Kune Do is far more of a set of strategies for fighting/training/self-defense than a martial arts system that is separate and distinct from Karate (or any other MA.) Bruce's whole point with JKD was not to create a new MA, but to make sure that he never got stuck into one way of thinking with no other option.

If you go through your whole training in one art, and never think that there are other ways to do things then you will get stuck thinking about MA only the way that your instructor and/or style of MA teaches you to think about it. This is important for beginners learning the basics as they need to focus on learning the basics. Once you have mastered those, and know how to kick and punch and block properly, and your knowledge of your own body starts to come into tune, then it is time to build on that foundation. Kante, I think this is the point you are now at in your training.

Keep in mind that your basic root art should not be abandoned. It should be enhanced by your cross training.

If I never branched out into BJJ, Capoeira, and Aiki-JuJitsu training, and just stayed in Tae Kwon Do, I'd still be thinking about self-defense and fighting from a TKD standpoint only, which isn't necessarily the best art for self defense, but more so, my body type and temperament are not suited for TKD. I'm a short, stout, stubborn type who would rather remain grounded and use my strength, balance, takedown, and blocking skills during a fight, than bounce around, executing high, spinning, jumping kicks like are taught and emphasized in TKD.

I'm glad I train in TKD, and continue to do so after 12 years, it has helped me to build a nice foundation and has actually helped me greatly to develop the weaker points of my athleticism, but, without my cross training I'd continue to get my butt kicked, even in TKD style sparring. Again, my body type and the way I think about fighting are not what is emphasized in TKD. Since I started cross training, I have become far more confident in myself on the whole, and even more successful in TKD tournaments as I now have a much better idea of my style of MA, which includes TKD, but is not limited to it. While i don't always win on the point side of things, my opponents who train strictly in TKD have no idea how to handle me not backing up, slipping their attacks, not bouncing around, staying in close, checking their kicks and punches. It's a whole different world for them, especially because I understand their style, but they have no grasp of mine.

So, to cut this short, I encourage you to cross train, broaden your MA horizons, learn more about yourself, but don't let that lead you into abandoning your Karate, in fact, if your instructor is OK with it, you should be bringing these new techniques and strategies back to your Dojo so that you can share them with your fellow students. This, to me, is the real way of Jeet Kune Do.

[James Bullock]

Good post Ottman,

The principles of JKD can most definitely be applied to other systems.

I too believe that cross training can and is very beneficial.

Unfortunately people abandon great arts like Karate for other modern arts. I see the benefit of having both tradition and non-tradition.

[bushido_man96]

Good post Ottman,

The principles of JKD can most definitely be applied to other systems.

I too believe that cross training can and is very beneficial.

Unfortunately people abandon great arts like Karate for other modern arts. I see the benefit of having both tradition and non-tradition.

I agree. Good post by both of you, Ottman and James.

I think you have hit the nail on the head with your description of JKD, Ottman. Very well said.