Honor

[NightOwl]

Hey all!

Don't misinterpret this...I believe strongly in honor and standing up for what is right and good even when it's hard to do (as it almost always is). However, I am curious as to why people say that MAs are about honor when historically they have not been. Sure, you have Knights and Samurai with their codes of ethics (or rather 'guidelines'); but the romanticizing of Bushido didn't come about until the Edo period when there were no wars and the samurai had to justify their existence since they were not supposed to engage in commerce under Confucianism.

In China it was not much better. Most people who practiced martial arts were at the bottom of society (since it was considered not productive to society to be a martial artist and thus MA teachers would be ranked alongside of street performers, etc), and it was pretty much kept to commoners and not the elite (unlike in Japan). The only other part of society that practiced MAs were secret societies, and many times they were not the nicest folks...

Also, many martial artists did not avoid fights, rather sometimes they actually looked for trouble!

considering this history, I just find it a little strange that MA are seen as being so honorable...again, I strongly advocate chivalry, but until recent times that was not necessarily a big part of the MA experience.

thoughts?

[BLueDevil]

Interesting topic, I'll start.

I actually agree with what your saying. I think what would be a good idea to explore is what the definition of honor was to the people you named. Samurai where driven more in the early days by service to there emperor, in China monks started MA to help themselves against bandits and whatever else threatened them.

There were also periods in history, such as in Okinawa, that MA was made illegal by the Japanese. Thats when they started practicing in secret, and most likely being hostile with the Japanese that took them over, same with the Chinese is the 1920s(although thats more recent)

It really just boils down to what does honor mean to you now? And what did honor mean to them at that time?

[learning kempo-karate]

Hello. Nice topic! Honor also means respect! NO man is perfect. Those who were not honorable, live there life that way.

Remember there were also many honorable people in those periods as well as today.

Our society is made of humans beings that were raise by all kinds and types of people. NOT everyone has excellant role models to follow.

Even bad guys have their own codes of honor....look at the prisons today.

===============================================Honor , trustworthy,Humble, kind, generous, .....these people who have this qualities are not rare...just hard to notice at times.

NO one is perfect...we all have our rough spots...I really believe most of us try to live our life in an honorable way.

Trust: Once broken....you will never be 100% again..even if you did become trustworthy for the rest of your life, (you maybe forgiven..but your deeds will never be forgottan.)

Honor means staying in a straight line, never crossing over the wrong side of life.

Remember: It is very easy to lie,cheat and steal....it takes more effort to be honest,trusted, and honorable.

Always be truthful...it will save you alot trouble afterwards if you lie.

In the courts..if you lie once...anything you say afterwards cannot be trusted, because if you lie once...who can believe you are now telling the truths. (Once you cross that line..you will be forever...known for lieing)

Those bad qualities are human weakness....which can be over come by being stronger in your beliefs of one self.

One last thing here: If you do not like yourself? ....You will become weaker....BELIEVE IN YOURSELF....accept yourself and enviroments. You father and mother made you....one cannot change the body...but by accepting what you have and making the most of it...WILL MAKE YOU A STRONGER PERSON............................Aloha

PS: Whew...some heavy thoughts here......be nice!

[NightOwl]

nono, I didn't mean to talk about the nature of honor, but rather why did MA's get this whole 'Honor culture' built up around them when they historically were not much more honorable than any other segment of society.

[bushido_man96]

The idea of Bushido and Chivalry are both fairly romanticized. For some reason, the "shining knight" made its way into literature, and has remained there for many hundreds of years.

Most of the time, these codes only transferred to your position in life, i.e., class. Anyone below the class you were in, didn't really fall under the category.

The ideas that the MAs should be honorable, and uphold all these criterea are fairly new. Is this bad, though? No, I don't believe so. However, the ideas of what life was like in antiquity is very overstated, in my opinion.

[The BB of C]

That's all very interesting, Nightowl. It's part of the reason I never look at any group as a whole. I moreso look at the individual. If the individual martial artist (we'll call him 'Bob' just to make this easier for me ) was honorable and respectable with his skills then I think he is a very good person as well as a martial artist. However, if Bob was cocky and constantly looking for fights and trouble I wouldn't like him too much. But 'Bill' over there could be different. I'm probably being really confusing right now. Reguardless do you understand what I'm saying?

[jaymac]

I think this is a great topic and I see what you are asking. Yes in ancient times, those who practiced Martial Arts were not always honorable. They would go out deliberately looking for fights - and fights that I might add that resulted in death. I do not think it was until Martial Arts became accepted and taught in schools that it turned its bad side around as good. Instructors like Master Funakoshi demanded respect, honor, and nothing but 100% given by all his students. Martial Arts has come a long way from ancient times and is ever changing. These days, I believe it is up to the practitioner himself/herself to decide whether they train with honor and respect or dishonor and disrespect.

[DWx]

Hmmm... going back a bit but the HwaRang Warriors (ie. Early form of TaeKyon?.. I know some Tae Kwon Do can be traced back to them) were from upper class of Korean Society anyway. Honour was important to them as anything else. They also had a great deal exposure to Buddhism influence. If you look at their warrior code it states that any kills made must be just, I suppose you could carry that further to any attack being just?

I haven't ever really looked into any other groups or individuals.

[lordtariel]

I agree with what's been said so far. We don't live in a time where there is always constant danger to defend against, so we see everything through rosey glasses. The notions of honor also change over time and distance. What one culture sees as honorable isn't always the same as what other cultures think is.

[learning kempo-karate]

Hello, UM? Just guessing here....maybe in the old days it meant be LOYAL to your own group.

People who look for fights are NO different from those who Box,MMAs,martai art tournments....it was about proving oneselve is worthy amount others. (in the old days it meant to kill your opponent.

(Like Musushi! and to live the life code of the Samurai's), which was known as been honorable.

Being loyal to your leaders meant doing what they wanted you to do...even if it meant to kill women and childern. (Loyal to your leaders).

Every groups had to have LOYAL followers in order to exsit as a group. This loyality was consider being honorable.

Not sure if I am guessing right? ....but I hope this little bit here help you some? ....if not......that is alright! ..........just trying to see if we can help.....Aloha