Adjusting other MA katas...

[bushido_man96]

You are correct. But the people who made those changes made them for specific reasons and after they reached a certain level of understanding. When Itosu created the Pinans he did so after many years of study, and for the purpose of introducing karate into the school system. He did not just learn a kata because he liked the way it looked then change the moves to resemble moves that were in his style.

Itosu did make the Pinans, and he made them the way that he did so that he could teach them to children. He had a purpose, at the time. However, does that mean the purpose still holds for today?

Don't get me wrong, here. I love forms. I always have. I think that they are beneficial to MA practice. However, as I previously mentioned, I don't think that they are a holy grail of the Martial Arts. There are many different styles out there that have thrived without the use of forms as a training tool. I think that Bruce Lee obviously felt that there were better training tools out there, as well.

With the years that Lee spent in Wing Chun, I would be willing to bet that he had some level of competency in the art. I would also be willing to bet that he had some knowledge of the use of transitional movements (stances) and how they related to fighting. In his readings, he was a big proponent of the use of footwork.

I also don't think that Lee was in the habit of "bashing" other arts, as you mention. He did have his opinions about them, but he also had many friends that were practitioners of the more "traditional" arts. I don't really think that he would have spent time in their workout sessions to "bash" their arts. I could be wrong here, but I think he had a little more respect for them then that.

[vashogun]

I understand the other point of view. And it is all good points. I espicially like the comparrison to the standards for writing poetry. However, the laws of writing in any format can be bent or broken when it is necissary. My rule of thumb, and it is only my rule, is that if you are going to break a rule, you should know well the rule you are breaking and why.

That said, I don't think learning a new kata is breaking the rules. No matter what the opinion is or how you want to percieve it, Karate will always be a personal thing, and I find that beautiful. I also understand that feel good mentality, and the need for regiment and discipline. But I don't feel this is in violation here.

I only see the need for the student to practice this experiment with regiment and discipline.

[NinTai]

I understand the other point of view. And it is all good points. I espicially like the comparrison to the standards for writing poetry. However, the laws of writing in any format can be bent or broken when it is necissary. My rule of thumb, and it is only my rule, is that if you are going to break a rule, you should know well the rule you are breaking and why.

Vashogun, I don’t believe that learning a new kata is what is the issue. The question was:

“Can I take katas from other MAs and adjust them to Shotokan by changing the moves to the closest ones there are at Shotokan?”

Edited May 4, 2007 by NinTai

[NinTai]

"Itosu did make the Pinans, and he made them the way that he did so that he could teach them to children. He had a purpose, at the time. However, does that mean the purpose still holds for today?"

Absolutely, nothing has really changed in this case are you going to teach school children the more vicious techniques or something

that will be safe and get them training.

"Don't get me wrong, here. I love forms. I always have. I think that they are beneficial to MA practice. However, as I previously mentioned, I don't think that they are a holy grail of the Martial Arts. There are many different styles out there that have thrived without the use of forms as a training tool. I think that Bruce Lee obviously felt that there were better training tools out there, as well."

Kata are a way of instruction. They are not the holy grail they are just the way our styles have chosen to pass on knowledge.

In reality all forms of combat have some sort or “kata”, when I was in the academy we were taught the Avery Method.

There was a way to draw, acquire the target, shoot and reholster the weapon. Well this was a kata, a way of practicing the

movement so it became second nature, and in the same way you did’t change the “kata” you just did it.

"With the years that Lee spent in Wing Chun, I would be willing to bet that he had some level of competency in the art. I would also be willing to bet that he had some knowledge of the use of transitional movements (stances) and how they related to fighting. In his readings, he was a big proponent of the use of footwork."

He did but according to William Chueng Lee’s senior, friend and teacher Lee was not allowed to learn the real wing chun because

he was not of full Chinese blood. So we can’t say if Lee’s attitude would have been different if he was allowed to learn the full art.

"I also don't think that Lee was in the habit of "bashing" other arts, as you mention. He did have his opinions about them, but he also had many friends that were practitioners of the more "traditional" arts. I don't really think that he would have spent time in their workout sessions to "bash" their arts. I could be wrong here, but I think he had a little more respect for them then that."

Lee’s biggest quote was about the “classical mess”.

Quotes from Lee:

"A guy could be clobbered while getting into his classical mess," he told reporters.

"To me 99 percent of the whole business of Oriental self-defense is baloney," Lee once said. "It's fancy jazz. It looks good, but it doesn't work."

[Shorin Ryuu]

Itosu did make the Pinans, and he made them the way that he did so that he could teach them to children. He had a purpose, at the time. However, does that mean the purpose still holds for today?

Absolutely. Just because he did not teach schoolchildren the full application of the Pinan kata, doesn't mean the Pinan kata do not have full application. Furthermore, the mechanics of generating power are the same regardless of the techniques involved, so they are by no means a waste of time compared to the "advanced" kata. Even the most "basic techniques" done properly will end a confrontation without the need for fancy grappling manuevers that other kata supposedly have.

With the years that Lee spent in Wing Chun, I would be willing to bet that he had some level of competency in the art. I would also be willing to bet that he had some knowledge of the use of transitional movements (stances) and how they related to fighting. In his readings, he was a big proponent of the use of footwork.

According to Robert Smith (if you don't know who Robert Smith is, he was one of the earliest and most prolific English writers on Chinese martial arts), Bruce Lee was listed very low on Yip Man's roster in terms of skill. I'm not throwing this in here to turn this discussion into a "Bash Bruce Lee Party". I'm saying that all too often his time spent in Wing Chun is cited as evidence that you can easily "master" a style and then switch to another. Just like people who think they have mastered the basics, the idea that they have mastered a style is often premature. Granted, there are styles out there that I consider incomplete or have lost a lot, so it is not surprising that people reach a "dead end" in their training. This dead end is usually misinterpreted as mastering the basics of striking, to use a karate example.

I also don't think that Lee was in the habit of "bashing" other arts, as you mention. He did have his opinions about them, but he also had many friends that were practitioners of the more "traditional" arts. I don't really think that he would have spent time in their workout sessions to "bash" their arts. I could be wrong here, but I think he had a little more respect for them then that.

As NinTai mentioned, he was quite in the habit of doing so and would often market his methodology on that very basis.

[bushido_man96]

My point with the Pinan katas are that they were created with a purpose. And they can still be valid to train in today, like Shorin Ryuu mentions, with training basic techniques. However, as can be noted in other styles, there are ways that can result in successful training away from forms training.

Kata are a way of instruction. They are not the holy grail they are just the way our styles have chosen to pass on knowledge.

In reality all forms of combat have some sort or “kata”, when I was in the academy we were taught the Avery Method.

There was a way to draw, acquire the target, shoot and reholster the weapon. Well this was a kata, a way of practicing the

movement so it became second nature, and in the same way you did’t change the “kata” you just did it.

I guess, if you want to call everything that you do for muscle memory purposes a kata, then that is fine. I don't look at it that way. You could say the same for any floor drill you do with basics, any bag combination drills, etc. In the end, to me, they aren't katas. They are drills.

You make good points about what Bruce Lee said, though. He was quite outspoken.

[bushido_man96]

As NinTai mentioned, he was quite in the habit of doing so and would often market his methodology on that very basis.

This may be so, but he used it in the sense of working in the most efficient manner possible, and I really feel that Lee felt that forms were not very efficient when it came to learning how to fight/defend one-self.

I'm saying that all too often his time spent in Wing Chun is cited as evidence that you can easily "master" a style and then switch to another. Just like people who think they have mastered the basics, the idea that they have mastered a style is often premature.

Achieving a level of "mastery" is, in my opinion, one of the most ambiguous things in the Martial Arts. It is so because it is nearly impossible to put a timetable on such an accomplishment. Many times, masters appear to be so in the eyes of others, as opposed to themselves, unless they have a really big ego problem. How do you know when you have mastered the basics? What exactly are the basics? Is mastering the basics the only requirement for achieving mastery? Or, does it simply mean that you have mastered the basics, and that it is now time to move on? I think the last statement there may sum it up the best, but I don't know.

I am not a master, I can say that, though.

[NinTai]

My point with the Pinan katas are that they were created with a purpose. And they can still be valid to train in today, like Shorin Ryuu mentions, with training basic techniques. However, as can be noted in other styles, there are ways that can result in successful training away from forms training.

I guess, if you want to call everything that you do for muscle memory purposes a kata, then that is fine. I don't look at it that way. You could say the same for any floor drill you do with basics, any bag combination drills, etc. In the end, to me, they aren't katas. They are drills.

You make good points about what Bruce Lee said, though. He was quite outspoken.

To me a kata is a set of movements designed to teach concepts and to engrain proper movement and sequence into muscle memory.

If you look at Koryu (old family systems from japan) most of their kata consist of 2-5 movements.

The difference between a kata and drills like you mentioned above are the use of pr defined movements or lack there of.

Example:

Drill: Go to the heavy bag and work for 3, 3 min rounds.

Kata: Go to the heavy bag and work jab, jab, cross, jab uppercut.

The second example is a predefined set of movements that you want to work on and ingrain into your muscle memory and to develop proper power generation from technique to technique.

Its mostly symantecs but if I say I'm going to teach you a compbination of techniques or a kata in my view the purpose is basically the same.

[bushido_man96]

Example:

Drill: Go to the heavy bag and work for 3, 3 min rounds.

Kata: Go to the heavy bag and work jab, jab, cross, jab uppercut.

The second example is a predefined set of movements that you want to work on and ingrain into your muscle memory and to develop proper power generation from technique to technique.

Its mostly symantecs but if I say I'm going to teach you a compbination of techniques or a kata in my view the purpose is basically the same.

This is where we differ in opinions. I don't view the jab, jab, cross, jab, uppercut as a kata, but as a drill. I agree with the muscle-memory ingraining aspect, but I don't think that it makes the drill a kata.