Adjusting other MA katas...

[username8517]

To talk about perfecting a kata is truely out of the question for anyone. All we can do is strive for perfection.

Any technique in and of itself can take a few years of deligent study to perfect, let alone a sequence of moves like in a kata. Many martial artists even say that even one kata can take years of focusing solely and only on that particular kata just to understand the facets of it, let alone mastering the techniques involved.

So is this to say we should only work on one kata at a time if it's so important to master it before moving on to others? If not, then why do we work on other katas before we have taken years to master even the most basic ones?

And since we do move on from one kata to another before the previous one is mastered, what is the harm of examining and practincing katas from other styles as long as the practioner's primary focus is one their main style? Taking it back to Kain's example, if Kain starts to work on kata from say Wado-Ryu, what are the odds that he would master or even understand the nuances of a Wado-Ryu kata over his(?) level of technique and understanding in Shotokan. Also, as Kain orginally stated, he would be modifying the moves in style B to Shotokan's closest move, which would practically negate any potential technique corruption.

In closing, what if Kain's example was about branching out and working on Judo techniques to compliment his Shotokan training--would the same assessment be made about mastering his Shotokan skills first before thinking about moving on to Judo???

[Sohan]

To talk about perfecting a kata is truely out of the question for anyone. All we can do is strive for perfection.

Any technique in and of itself can take a few years of deligent study to perfect, let alone a sequence of moves like in a kata. Many martial artists even say that even one kata can take years of focusing solely and only on that particular kata just to understand the facets of it, let alone mastering the techniques involved.

So is this to say we should only work on one kata at a time if it's so important to master it before moving on to others? If not, then why do we work on other katas before we have taken years to master even the most basic ones?

And since we do move on from one kata to another before the previous one is mastered, what is the harm of examining and practincing katas from other styles as long as the practioner's primary focus is one their main style? Taking it back to Kain's example, if Kain starts to work on kata from say Wado-Ryu, what are the odds that he would master or even understand the nuances of a Wado-Ryu kata over his(?) level of technique and understanding in Shotokan. Also, as Kain orginally stated, he would be modifying the moves in style B to Shotokan's closest move, which would practically negate any potential technique corruption.

In closing, what if Kain's example was about branching out and working on Judo techniques to compliment his Shotokan training--would the same assessment be made about mastering his Shotokan skills first before thinking about moving on to Judo???

Bearich, respectfully, you're missing the point. Kain is an ORANGE belt in Shotokan. What does that take, 6-12 months tops to achieve? An orange belt has no business "branching out" by adapting katas from other styles. He hasn't been training long enough to understand what he is doing.

And as for trying other styles, he will have much better perspective to work from when he is a brown belt. In my school, we are welcome to cross-train in other MA's, but we are required to wait until preferably brown belt, when we have gained sufficient mastery of the existing material taught in our system.

I highly doubt at Kain's current rank that he will possess the knowledge, experience, or understanding to be adapting kata from other styles to his current style. It's silly to think he would be "branching out" -- he likely doesn't yet even have a good grasp on his existing style!

And as I stated earlier, if he asked his sensei about this, he would likely get the same answer I am giving.

With respect,

Sohan

[username8517]

Bearich, respectfully, you're missing the point. Kain is an ORANGE belt in Shotokan. What does that take, 6-12 months tops to achieve? An orange belt has no business "branching out" by adapting katas from other styles. He hasn't been training long enough to understand what he is doing.

And as for trying other styles, he will have much better perspective to work from when he is a brown belt. In my school, we are welcome to cross-train in other MA's, but we are required to wait until preferably brown belt, when we have gained sufficient mastery of the existing material taught in our system.

I highly doubt at Kain's current rank that he will possess the knowledge, experience, or understanding to be adapting kata from other styles to his current style. It's silly to think he would be "branching out" -- he likely doesn't yet even have a good grasp on his existing style!

And as I stated earlier, if he asked his sensei about this, he would likely get the same answer I am giving.

Sohan,

I can see where you are coming from, but I do not think I am missing the point, rather merely debating a different one. I am not going to argue that the more training you have under your belt before branching out the better as anytime you choose to branch our or cross train the more experience under your belt (no pun intended) the better. But I do not see this as the case.

I view this scenario of braching out and adapting katas from other styles no different than cross training in another style--a learning experience for the practioner.

Both a different karate style and a different martial art altogher will present the practioner with a different way of looking at things (and potentially techniques but in Kain's case he would be adapting the moves to Shotokan so there's not really much of a issue there).

But outright telling someone they cannot look at or practice another style until they have they have a solid foundation to work from in their original style is a little out of my understanding.

Take someone who walks in off the street to and into a training facility because they want to the next MMA superstar. In the respective training facility they want to sign up for MT and BJJ. Do you think that the instructor of the school is going to tell them that they can take MT and not start BJJ for approximately the next three years (just guessing on the time it takes to get a brown belt in your dojo) because the instructor thinks they need to understand MT before they start working on their grappling skills?

If one of my students came to me and said they wanted to work on katas from Shito-Ryu outside of class time and wanted my opinion I can honestly say that 1). I wouldn't exactly be thrilled about it, but since it's on their personal time I really can't say or do much, and 2). I would make it clear to them that their Shogen-Ryu kata training came first and foremost--which is basically what I intially relayed to Kain.

Would I be a little more leanent if they came to me and said "I want to learn Judo" as opposed to kata from another style? Absolutely, since it would have less of a chance of corrupting their original kata as I've taught them. But I'm not going to impose any time limits on any of my students if they want to learn things outside of what I teach them.

[Sohan]

Bearich, respectfully, you're missing the point. Kain is an ORANGE belt in Shotokan. What does that take, 6-12 months tops to achieve? An orange belt has no business "branching out" by adapting katas from other styles. He hasn't been training long enough to understand what he is doing.

And as for trying other styles, he will have much better perspective to work from when he is a brown belt. In my school, we are welcome to cross-train in other MA's, but we are required to wait until preferably brown belt, when we have gained sufficient mastery of the existing material taught in our system.

I highly doubt at Kain's current rank that he will possess the knowledge, experience, or understanding to be adapting kata from other styles to his current style. It's silly to think he would be "branching out" -- he likely doesn't yet even have a good grasp on his existing style!

And as I stated earlier, if he asked his sensei about this, he would likely get the same answer I am giving.

Sohan,

I can see where you are coming from, but I do not think I am missing the point, rather merely debating a different one. I am not going to argue that the more training you have under your belt before branching out the better as anytime you choose to branch our or cross train the more experience under your belt (no pun intended) the better. But I do not see this as the case.

I view this scenario of braching out and adapting katas from other styles no different than cross training in another style--a learning experience for the practioner.

Both a different karate style and a different martial art altogher will present the practioner with a different way of looking at things (and potentially techniques but in Kain's case he would be adapting the moves to Shotokan so there's not really much of a issue there).

But outright telling someone they cannot look at or practice another style until they have they have a solid foundation to work from in their original style is a little out of my understanding.

Take someone who walks in off the street to and into a training facility because they want to the next MMA superstar. In the respective training facility they want to sign up for MT and BJJ. Do you think that the instructor of the school is going to tell them that they can take MT and not start BJJ for approximately the next three years (just guessing on the time it takes to get a brown belt in your dojo) because the instructor thinks they need to understand MT before they start working on their grappling skills?

If one of my students came to me and said they wanted to work on katas from Shito-Ryu outside of class time and wanted my opinion I can honestly say that 1). I wouldn't exactly be thrilled about it, but since it's on their personal time I really can't say or do much, and 2). I would make it clear to them that their Shogen-Ryu kata training came first and foremost--which is basically what I intially relayed to Kain.

Would I be a little more leanent if they came to me and said "I want to learn Judo" as opposed to kata from another style? Absolutely, since it would have less of a chance of corrupting their original kata as I've taught them. But I'm not going to impose any time limits on any of my students if they want to learn things outside of what I teach them.

Bearich, I understand your point. But the threadstarter is not talking about crosstraining as you are referring to, rather he is wanting to take kata from other styles and adapt the kata to Shotokan principles. This is not the same as picking up some Judo throws, learning to fight someone from your guard, or developing submission skills.

He is trying to do something he isn't ready for at orange belt level, and he simply doesn't have the Shotokan experience needed to do what he wants to do.

With respect,

Sohan

[username8517]

Bearich, I understand your point. But the threadstarter is not talking about crosstraining as you are referring to, rather he is wanting to take kata from other styles and adapt the kata to Shotokan principles. This is not the same as picking up some Judo throws, learning to fight someone from your guard, or developing submission skills.

He is trying to do something he isn't ready for at orange belt level, and he simply doesn't have the Shotokan experience needed to do what he wants to do.

While we may differ on this, I believe this scenario is at root the same as cross training. Both cross-training and this above will lend more knowledge and experience to the practioner, which is what is needed to gain more insight into his martial arts training.

As far as implementing Shotokan's principles into these other katas, I'm not too sure about. The original post stated he would be changing the moves to the closest one Shotokan has available. Whether Kain meant to imply that he was going to insert the Shotokan principles into the kata or not I don't know, but I took it at face value of simply "I'm going to replace move A with move B" and be done with that. But then again I could be wrong on that all together.

But to sum it up, yes I would recommend more experience under Kain's belt before trying to work on this kata transition if it's going to be part of a continuous training method. If it's just going to be something fun to do every now and then for a challenge or enjoyment, I don't see the harm in doing so.

[Elky]

He just wants to play around with some kata - I say go for it - experiment!

I've always quite fancied learning some of the goju kata like tensho, sanchin or suparinpei just because there's nothing really similar in shotokan.

Besides what can go wrong, he's just taking some kata that he doesn't really understand and changing bits so they suit his style - it's what Gen Choi did to create Taekwondo and that worked out Ok for him!

[Sohan]

He just wants to play around with some kata - I say go for it - experiment!

I've always quite fancied learning some of the goju kata like tensho, sanchin or suparinpei just because there's nothing really similar in shotokan.

Besides what can go wrong, he's just taking some kata that he doesn't really understand and changing bits so they suit his style - it's what Gen Choi did to create Taekwondo and that worked out Ok for him!

There is a reason why in karate we are taught materials at certain levels and are told not to teach ourself materials that are outside of our current level in the curriculum. It is because, in the opinions of the senseis we trust our training to, we are not READY for it yet. Contrary to the belief of some on this thread, there is indeed the strong risk of developing bad habits and misinterpreting techniques, which could lead to injury or ineffective form.

Remember, this guy is an ORANGE BELT. At Orange belt one barely has a grasp of the beginning basics, so it is absurd to think that such a student can "adapt" kata based on Shotokan techniques when they are still wearing their proverbial MA "diapers". It's like having an toddler read a passage from Shakespeare--it's possible, but not likely to be properly understood.

BTW, I still haven't had anyone address my comment about Kain asking his Sensei about this first. I suspect he already knows what the response would be.

With respect,

Sohan

[lordtariel]

Some senseis wouldn't have a problem, but you're right Sohan... Most of them would tell him he should probably stick to what he's learning. It really depends on the student's skill and commitment. If he's spending adequate time studying his existing kata and wants to do extra, that's ok with me.(Of course I'm not a sensei)

Do we know if Kain's ONLY martial arts experience is an orange belt in Shotokan? I agree that he should really be focusing on his Shotokan katas since he's only an orange belt in that system but maybe he's already got a black belt somewhere else. Would you feel as strongly about him not doing it in that case?

Second, I feel that modifying katas to fit a different style is not harming the school it's borrowed from PROVIDED he's only doing it to improve his understanding of Shotokan vs the different art. As long as he is not going to teach this modified kata or call it by its original name, I don't feel it's going to corrupt the system. A good instructor SHOULD be able to tell you the difference between art X and art Y.

[Kain]

Thanks everybody for your suggestions!

I didn't ask my sensei because I was sure he would say the same thing. I just wanted your opinion about it and of course to express the idea. Since I am a starter at Shotokan and MA generally, I guess I'll wait a bit more before trying it out. If I fail to achieve the goal I've set for this year (taking a double belt at one of the exams) it'll mean I'm not good enough, I'll have to rethink about my training, talk to sensei about my goal and my idea, and listen to what he have to say about it. Until then, I'll stick at my Shotokan training, and be as serious as I can about it.

[bushido_man96]

Thanks everybody for your suggestions!

I didn't ask my sensei because I was sure he would say the same thing. I just wanted your opinion about it and of course to express the idea. Since I am a starter at Shotokan and MA generally, I guess I'll wait a bit more before trying it out. If I fail to achieve the goal I've set for this year (taking a double belt at one of the exams) it'll mean I'm not good enough, I'll have to rethink about my training, talk to sensei about my goal and my idea, and listen to what he have to say about it. Until then, I'll stick at my Shotokan training, and be as serious as I can about it.

So, you are a beginner in Shotokan, have no prior experience, and want to double-grade at a testing this year? Pretty lofty goals, I think.

My advise to you is not to worry about the testings, but what you learn in between them. There is so much more to it than double-gradings and the next belt. Enjoy your time. Don't rush it.