The Dichotomy Of Children and MAs...Does it Affect You?

[bushido_man96]

I don't see anything wrong with having kids learn martial arts. I think they should be separated into specific "kids only" classes, but it's also good instruction for older students to learn to deal with kids. Kids that show maturity should be able to get special invitations to come to older classes.

I agree with class seperation. It is hard to fill the needs of both adults and children at the same time, when you have to go about it so differently for the two.

I don't particularly like the concept of "Karate Day Care" but at the same time, that may be the only time some of them ever receive any instruction regarding self-discipline, respect and physical fitness. It's wrong, but unfortunately, that's the way things go in this day and age.

I don't like playing babysitter, either, in this case. However, I don't see a whole lot of that in my area. Many of the parents like to watch the class, and many of the children don't have to wait around long for the parents to show up. I guess it just depends on the area.

[bushido_man96]

Children, having no prior experience in martial arts, have no way to water them down.

It's the instructors who look to make huge profit off of the innocence of children and naivety of their parents that water down the arts.

I think this is a good point. Very well stated.

...saw a 6 year old black belt....She was able to do all kinds of fancy stuff and hit pads really well....She has no place wearing a black belt.

This is where I think that rank becomes detrimental to martial arts. Kids can play at all kinds of different sports: kid's wrestling, football, baseball, etc. The list goes on and on.

I'll stick with kid's wrestling, because I think it relates well to the philosophy of children in the martial arts. There is no rank in kid's wrestling...just practice and competition. They go to practice, learn things, go compete, come back, and practice more. Since they don't have rank, there is no concern about how much they can and can't learn. If they compete well, they go on to the next level, like state or national championships. They train and learn, train and learn. Now, in martial arts, children do this as well. However, the martial arts will use a rank indicator, the belt, to decide in which brackets the children compete in.

Perhaps if the martial arts could shed the idea of rank, then everything would start to clear itself up.

[NightOwl]

Children, having no prior experience in martial arts, have no way to water them down.

It's the instructors who look to make huge profit off of the innocence of children and naivety of their parents that water down the arts.

I think this is a good point. Very well stated.

...saw a 6 year old black belt....She was able to do all kinds of fancy stuff and hit pads really well....She has no place wearing a black belt.

This is where I think that rank becomes detrimental to martial arts. Kids can play at all kinds of different sports: kid's wrestling, football, baseball, etc. The list goes on and on.

I'll stick with kid's wrestling, because I think it relates well to the philosophy of children in the martial arts. There is no rank in kid's wrestling...just practice and competition. They go to practice, learn things, go compete, come back, and practice more. Since they don't have rank, there is no concern about how much they can and can't learn. If they compete well, they go on to the next level, like state or national championships. They train and learn, train and learn. Now, in martial arts, children do this as well. However, the martial arts will use a rank indicator, the belt, to decide in which brackets the children compete in.

Perhaps if the martial arts could shed the idea of rank, then everything would start to clear itself up.

Yes that is true. But the fact of the matter is that the MA world has not reached that point (although intrestingly enough, only judo if I remember correctly originally had formal rankings). belt color is supposed to equal skill level. And as it is well, martial; in theory that should correspond with fighting skill, so when you see a 8 year old 2nd Dan next to a 28 year old 1st Dan, it is a bit hard to take seriously IMO.

Yes, it is nice if they are trained seperately, but in many cases (perhaps the majority of them) they are not. *Storms off to do old guy stuff*

[patusai]

The belt, no natter the color, is a piece of material tied to someone's waist. On the one end you have a junior black belt under the age of 10 and other the other side you have instructors, masters if you will, at or better than 8th dan. Although when I started there were no black belts awarded to someone under 16 (I think it was...or was it 18...mmmm...can't remember anymore) as long as the junior belt re-tests at the traditional age I don't see the big deal anymore. Oh, what might be nice is that before that time a junior BB wears a black belt that signifies junior level (perhaps a black belt with a white stripe down the center). Just my thoughts...If I were in charge of a karate organization.

[bushido_man96]

Yes that is true. But the fact of the matter is that the MA world has not reached that point (although intrestingly enough, only judo if I remember correctly originally had formal rankings). belt color is supposed to equal skill level. And as it is well, martial; in theory that should correspond with fighting skill, so when you see a 8 year old 2nd Dan next to a 28 year old 1st Dan, it is a bit hard to take seriously IMO.

Yes, it is nice if they are trained seperately, but in many cases (perhaps the majority of them) they are not. *Storms off to do old guy stuff*

I see your point, NightOwl. However, I think you have to compare a child's ability with other childrens' abilities, whether it be competing or fighting, and not with those of adults. That is just how I see it, though.

[ps1]

I like your wrestling comparison bushido_man96. I think you're correct. I really understand where you're going with it. The only problem is that wrestling is and always will be a sport. It's practiced for the sole purpose to go against others and see how you fare. Many martial arts not only don't compete, but actually frown on any type of competition with others. I would actually say that many types of martial art competition have just helped serve to water down the art.

Case in point: I went into a martial arts school that turned out many state and nationally ranked competitiors in both kata and kumite divisions. It is a Shorin Ryu school (I'm not saying Shorin Ryu is bad, just that, on the surface, it's a pretty traditional system so the school sounded legit). I went in and took a class. The students had great sparring and forms. Everything looked locked tight. After the class I asked the instructor if he could demonstrate the way he percieved bunkai and correlates it with his self defense. This guy is an 8th degree under a pretty big orginization and he told me that he's recently purchased Gracie Jiujitsu tapes to learn his self defense and he was never taught bunkai. I thanked him and politely excused myself, never to return. Because his students were asthetically pleasing, he kept getting promoted. Terrible. Shame on his instructors and shame on him for not admitting his faults and defincencies before then. Ego like this is what waters down the art.

[jaymac]

I don't blame children for watering down martial arts, I blame the individual running the school. Martial Arts has a place for everyone of all ages, just as any sport does. Look around, kids are fat these days, and so are a majority of adults. Many people do not join Martial Arts for the harsh training. They join for self discipline and the physical part of getting up off the couch and away from the computer that is on 24/7. However, I do feel that a serious instructor should accommodate to all his students and offer a class for the more serious individual who would like to train hard, work hard, and not worry about the color of the belt that is being tied around their waist. If an instructor is not doing this and giving in to the mcdojo type training to only fit the children, then isn't his/her fault?

[AngelaG]

I find it amazing that so many people still do not seem to realise that rank is a very personal thing. My grade is between me and my examiner. There is no comparison between me and anyone else of a similar grade. My martial arts progression is a personal one. If this was not true than only the strongest and the fittest would ever be able to wear a black belt... after a fight to the death or something. Saying something like a child cannot wear a black belt because you can pick them up and kill them seems to miss the point. Most men could batter a woman to death as well, does that mean women should not wear black belts? Should people with disabilities not wear black belts?

When we grade people we take into account how they personally have developed since their last grade. We take into account any medical problems.

The way we do it children do have to do the same test as adults. There are no concessions made. They have to put in 100% effort. They have to demonstrate knowledge of bunkai and principles. They may not be able to deal with a full on attack by a fully grown man, but they would be able to deal with an attack from a child their own size of slightly larger AND their odds of getting away from an adult attacker will have increased from the day tey first walked into the dojo. It may not be enough, but it's all we can offer them... and that is no more or less than we offer ANYONE that walks in through the dojo doors.

[bushido_man96]

I like your wrestling comparison bushido_man96. I think you're correct. I really understand where you're going with it. The only problem is that wrestling is and always will be a sport. It's practiced for the sole purpose to go against others and see how you fare. Many martial arts not only don't compete, but actually frown on any type of competition with others. I would actually say that many types of martial art competition have just helped serve to water down the art.

Thanks, ps1. I can see your point as well. I know that wrestling is sport, but many things involved with human activity become sport-like...it is in our very nature to compete, I think. Many times, warlike activities become games that children can play. This is how the martial arts are as well, at times. Now don't get me wrong; I am not saying that the martial arts are a game...far from it. I think that if a high level of competition can be involved, it can help to improve the outcome of the student's level of training, if not only from a physical standpoint.

Case in point: I went into a martial arts school that turned out many state and nationally ranked competitiors in both kata and kumite divisions. It is a Shorin Ryu school (I'm not saying Shorin Ryu is bad, just that, on the surface, it's a pretty traditional system so the school sounded legit). I went in and took a class. The students had great sparring and forms. Everything looked locked tight. After the class I asked the instructor if he could demonstrate the way he percieved bunkai and correlates it with his self defense. This guy is an 8th degree under a pretty big orginization and he told me that he's recently purchased Gracie Jiujitsu tapes to learn his self defense and he was never taught bunkai. I thanked him and politely excused myself, never to return. Because his students were asthetically pleasing, he kept getting promoted. Terrible. Shame on his instructors and shame on him for not admitting his faults and defincencies before then. Ego like this is what waters down the art.

I can see why this affected you so. However, my school doesn't do bunkai, either. We do some seperate self-defense work, but no bunkai. However, not all schools do forms, either. Therefore, not every school will have the same requirements. That doesn't mean that the instructor you spoke to wasn't deserving of his rank. It doesn't mean that it does, either. There is always just more to it. It may not have been what you were looking for in particular, and that is cool. However, if someone wanted to compete, and at a high level, then that school would have been spot on for them.

Rank is so funny this way. It means different things and different skill levels to different people.

[Patrick]

I was inspired by this thread to start a poll to see when a majority of people at this site first started training in the martial arts (under 16, 16 or older, etc.)

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=30031