Shorin Ryu and shotokan, differences?

[Jiffy]

Shotokan is created from a combination of Shorei Ryu, Shorin Ryu and Funakoshi's own ideas. The main difference you will find between Shorin Ryu and Shotokan is as stated, less katas in Shorin Ryu, and greater emphasis on combat principles rather than athletic prowess.

For anyone who follows Shotokan history, I suggest gettting a hold of two of Funakoshi's books. The first is Rentan Goshin Karate Jutsu (sometimes known as just "Karate Jutsu" and original version called "Ryukyu Kempo Karate". Then get a hold of his later book "Karate-Do Kyohan". The first were published in 1925 (1922 for first version) prior to modifcations to create Shotokan. The later was done 10 years later after many of the changes for the creation of Shotokan had been made.

After looking at the site....

-this is the Matsumura style of Shorin Ryu.

-I noticed in the gallery, a Goju person... not sure there...

-It seems to hold traditional values and ethics

-It has 22 Shorin-Ryu Kata

-Their syllabus is quite small, and basically made up of 5 things.... Kata, Theory, Kumite, Stomach Excersizes.

Generally speaking i would say that the good is the traditional principles. The bad is that they seem to have a limited syllabus and grades seem to be quite quick (average 1 year from Shodan to Nidan)

[armanox]

Few things that raise flags in my mind. First, they refer to themselves as "karatejutsu" - which Shorin Ryu is not.

Second, from the rules:

3. No student will provoke violence, inside or outside the dojo, or allow himself to be provoked into violence, under pain of expulsion from the art of karate for life.

Expulsion for life? And also one can be provoked into defending themselves, which is considered violence. So you can be kicked out for defending yourself?

12. Under no circumstances will any student, from white belt to brown belt, teach the art of karate to any person, or persons, without the permission and sanction of their Sensei. Any student who does so teach, can and WILL BE DEGRADED TO THE RANK OF WHITE BELT.

You can be demoted? WOW

13. ALL BLACK BELTS ARE TO BE ADDRESSED AS SENSEI.

Biggest issue with this one. In all Shorin Ryu organizations that I know of (which isn't many, so I may be wrong), and I'll quote my schools website on this (from http://kobayashiusa.com/Pages/Belts.htm)

Although a person may attain the rank of Black Belt, that person does not have the authority to promote another to any rank.

and for my organization(from http://kobayashiusa.com/Pages/Belts.htm):

A person must have reached the level of Yondan (4th Degree Black Belt) before they can award a certificate or a belt to another, and they must do so only after being given permission by their Sensei. At the rank of Rokudan or Nanadan one may receive a teachers licence which gives them the authority to promote students.

so really until they can promote, they shouldn't be referred to as sensei.

Third issue - Promotion requirements. Why should someone need to summit a resumé in order to be promoted? The sensei should know where his students stand. Also, the essays:

How has Shorin Ryu changed my life

Where is Karate from?

How did it get there?

What are Sokon Matsumura’s roles in the development of ‘Okinawan Martial Arts.’

What is Kata?

What is Shorin Ryu? (Shuri te)

What is called true Okinawan Karate?

So....I could answer these questions by referencing forums and the wikipedia, so I fail to see how they reflect learning in the dojo. Especially since it is a martial arts class, not a essay compisition class.

Fourth - gi costs. A lightweight gi does not cost $46 for a size 4. I know. I wear one. They cost on average $25. So the school is averaging $21 excess revenue.

After seeing the school's site, I am rather displeased with it - just my input.

[obiwansbane]

thnx this is why i posted here i was hoping for some input from different angles to see how ppl react

[Jiffy]

Few things that raise flags in my mind. First, they refer to themselves as "karatejutsu" - which Shorin Ryu is not.

That's incorrect. Karate was not known as Karate-Do until Funakoshi because he tried to change the emphasis from an art to a way of life, thus changing the emphasis from combat to personal development.

Karate was either known as Kempo, Ryukyu-Te, Karate or Karate-Jutsu. (often with the masters name or location put before it as the name of a style)

In modern translation, Karate Jutsu simply means "Art of the empty hand" (as opposed to WAY of the empty hand) and is generally used as a term for Karate that is more focused on the original concepts of combat, rather than competition.

Expulsion for life? And also one can be provoked into defending themselves, which is considered violence. So you can be kicked out for defending yourself?

Agreed, this is both unusual, and impossible.

12. Under no circumstances will any student, from white belt to brown belt, teach the art of karate to any person, or persons, without the permission and sanction of their Sensei. Any student who does so teach, can and WILL BE DEGRADED TO THE RANK OF WHITE BELT.

You can be demoted? WOW

I personally agree with this one. I think it's a big discouragement to teach the art without fully understanding it.

13. ALL BLACK BELTS ARE TO BE ADDRESSED AS SENSEI.

Biggest issue with this one. In all Shorin Ryu organizations that I know of (which isn't many, so I may be wrong), and I'll quote my schools website on this (from http://kobayashiusa.com/Pages/Belts.htm)

Although a person may attain the rank of Black Belt, that person does not have the authority to promote another to any rank.

and for my organization(from http://kobayashiusa.com/Pages/Belts.htm):

A person must have reached the level of Yondan (4th Degree Black Belt) before they can award a certificate or a belt to another, and they must do so only after being given permission by their Sensei. At the rank of Rokudan or Nanadan one may receive a teachers licence which gives them the authority to promote students.

so really until they can promote, they shouldn't be referred to as sensei.

True! But, bare in mind, not being able to promote till Yondan is not a common practice. I would also go as far as to say that Sensei should be reserved for only one instructor. For the best reference I've seen on this (by a member of this forum), see here... (under Karate-101 I think)

http://www.24fightingchickens.com

Fourth - gi costs. A lightweight gi does not cost $46 for a size 4. I know. I wear one. They cost on average $25. So the school is averaging $21 excess revenue.

AND????

What is the problem with a business, like a Karate school making a profit?? And more importantly, how do you know that's profit? What's their shipping charge? Who's their supplier? Does it include anything else? Does that subsidise training fees?

[Jiffy]

At the end of the day, you really should visit the school and judge for yourself. We can only judge by the information on their website, which isn't a whole lot, and tells us nothing about HOW they train. Pay them a visit, and if you like it, great. If not, look elsewhere. Nothing to loose.

[kamikaiguy]

Hanshi Legacy is Direct student of Anthony Sandoval, who trained White Crane from, I believe Hohan Soken Directly.

[baronbvp]

At the end of the day, you really should visit the school and judge for yourself. We can only judge by the information on their website, which isn't a whole lot, and tells us nothing about HOW they train. Pay them a visit, and if you like it, great. If not, look elsewhere.

Exactly. There is so much that goes into it. I like Shorin Ryu and find the stances more natural. I also don't like memorizing tons of kata. But the bottom line is if you like the school and how they do things; the people who teach and the way they teach; and the people who train there - then you will find value.

[bushido_man96]

At the end of the day, you really should visit the school and judge for yourself. We can only judge by the information on their website, which isn't a whole lot, and tells us nothing about HOW they train. Pay them a visit, and if you like it, great. If not, look elsewhere.

Exactly. There is so much that goes into it. I like Shorin Ryu and find the stances more natural. I also don't like memorizing tons of kata. But the bottom line is if you like the school and how they do things; the people who teach and the way they teach; and the people who train there - then you will find value.

You are spot-on there, Baron.

[ps1]

True! But, bare in mind, not being able to promote till Yondan is not a common practice. I would also go as far as to say that Sensei should be reserved for only one instructor. For the best reference I've seen on this (by a member of this forum), see here... (under Karate-101 I think)

http://www.24fightingchickens.com

I couldn't agree more! The word "Sensei" refers to much more than just "teacher" when used in proper context. Often times a person has only one. And it's not always the same person as everyone else either.

[baronbvp]

At my Shorin Ryu dojo, the head instructor was called renshi, a 6th Dan. As a sign of respect, all black belts were called sensei and all brown belts were called sempai. Only the head instructor could promote the higher belts.