shorin ryu Meiubukan

[Brandon Fisher]

What do you feel are the "sport like" elements of shotokan kata?

Overly long stances, modifications to original kata for the purpose of excercise and physical strength.

Yep exactly

[Elky]

What do you feel are the "sport like" elements of shotokan kata?

Overly long stances, modifications to original kata for the purpose of excercise and physical strength.

Hmmm, I agree with you about modifying kata for competition, that is annoying. But I disagree about the "overly" long stances. They're a feature of shotokan training generally (and let's be honest, they're not that long!). Shotokan kata do value ballistic movement, focus and power over subtlety, but they do instill these values in students, unlike many other styles which teach sloppy kata under the guise of "authenticity" and then don't bother teaching the bunkai anyway.

[cross]

But I disagree about the "overly" long stances. They're a feature of shotokan training generally (and let's be honest, they're not that long!).

If you dont consider this to be a sportive aspect, how would you describe it?

[Elky]

But I disagree about the "overly" long stances. They're a feature of shotokan training generally (and let's be honest, they're not that long!).

If you dont consider this to be a sportive aspect, how would you describe it?

Basic "on the job" physical conditioning. I do not believe that the archetypical shotokan zenkutsudachi was introduced just to look good in tournaments.

[cross]

From most accounts it was introduced has a means of physical training for school children?

[Elky]

From most accounts it was introduced has a means of physical training for school children?

What is the logic behind that? Why would a long stance need to be introduced particularly for schoolchildren?

[P.A.L]

Shotokan is a derivative of Okinawan Shuri-te which is a combative style, any changes in kata or steping for the purpose of conditioning makes it a sport oriented karate, as for sloppy kata, it goes back to performer, i can do a sloppy shotokan kata same as i can do a sloppy Sanchin.

[Elky]

Shotokan is a derivative of Okinawan Shuri-te which is a combative style, any changes in kata or steping for the purpose of conditioning makes it a sport oriented karate

That's illogical too. So anyone who doesn't train in okinawan karate is doing a sporting style? Do you think that's what the fukien white crane or other CMA practitioners are saying about Okinawan karateka? "They've made a change to that stance from White Crane style - they're clearly doing a sporting style". Martial arts evolve - they still are evolving.

as for sloppy kata, it goes back to performer, i can do a sloppy shotokan kata same as i can do a sloppy Sanchin.

I don't doubt it, my point is that shotokan kata emphasise strong technique and solid stances - generally good qualities to be found in a striking art. The strength of technique is integral to successfully performing the shotokan kata. Many so-called "authentic" styles of karate teach kata without the same degree of physicality meaning that the benefits of training in the kata are limited to memorising the sequences.

[armanox]

From my understanding of things, the kata system was never intended to be a means for strength training. The lengthened stances do aid the leg muscles in that fashion - at the cost of mobility. While the original intention of the change was most likely not competition, it certainly did not deter Shotokan's tournament usability. I would also agree that the kata is a reflection of the practitioner more then the style (in most cases) - I've seen some pretty sad competitors that claim to be a student of a specific style as well as some fantastic examples.

[RealWingChun]

Eventhough one cannot deny the sporting aspects of Shotokan karate, the art itself can still be used as an effective method of selfdefense. This is because all the ingredients are there.

Also, as I understand it and based what I was told by a 7th dan japanese Shotokan master, the low stances are for training purposes and that in a real fight one fights with a higher stance.

This pararells some of the Shaolin arts, where the stances seem unpractically low because (for the most part), they are for training purposes. The exponents use higher stances during real combat.

Of course, there are also practical uses for low stances in actual fighting, such as hitting a fallen foe or making low level strikes, but that is a different area of discussion.

Furthermore, the people who practise Shotokai karate use low stances, but their movements are flowing and soft, similar to some Okinawan karate styles and dare I say, even to kung fu. They use the low stances, but do not participate in competitions.

The Shotokai practitioners call themselves exponents of Budo Karate. Their training includes the nurturing of Ki (Chi).

They also claim to be the real heirs to Funakoshi's karate teachings and they could be right. Their main founder was master Egami, reputadely Funakoshi's main disciple and the late chief instructor of Funakoshi's school the Shoto-Kan. I believe that they do practise the same katas as the Shotokan but in a softer and more flowing fashion. Their kumite practise is also different.

The fact that they do not hold nor participate in competitions is closer to Funakoshi's teachings than those of Nakayama's JKA Shotokan who also relate themselves to Funakoshi. Their techniques' "softness" is also more similar to that of Funakoshi's own relaxed way of movement.

Anyway, I wrote too much. Just trying to point out that low stances do not automatically mean sport karate nor impracticality for fighting. I personally believe that with diligente practice, one can use even the low stances to good practical use, taking full advantage of their power and stability. There are some lineages of Shotokan who take this view.