punch speed

[bushido_man96]

Punch Speed has NOTHING to do with using weights or improving reflexes... Punch speed is developed with "Breathing Timing" where the timing of the punch matches your breathing. The faster you breathe, the faster the punch. The slower you breathe, the slower you punch. If the punch is out or sync with your breathing, it's like putting on the "brakes" when punching...

- Killer -

Although I agree that breathing is an important component when performing any technique, stating that it is the only factor that develops speed in punching does not seem accurate. A muscles' ablilty to be fast is based off of the amount of fast twitch I and fast twitch II, or the presense of more slow twitch muscle fibers in the body. Working and developing these muscle fibers plays a major role in devolping speed.

[Killer Miller]

You are serously confusing "reaction time" with a "fast punch..." Reaction timing is the fast twitch muscles you refer to. A fast punch can occur at any time - which is soly dependant on breathing timing in sync with muscle contraction timing. Develop breathing timing of your lower diagphram in conjunction with your muscle contractions to execute a punch from point A (start) and point B (Kime) in unison is the key here. If the two actions are not in sync, then you will not develop speed or control in your punches - or any other technique for that matter.

In terms of reaction timing (your fast twitch muscles you refer to), this is not realistic as to what truly occurs... Reaction timing is pre-learned or pre-determined responses of your body to a given situation. So before the fast twitch muscles are really needed for a quick response, the technique, scenario, or situation has already been learned into muscle memmory. The sub-conscious learned responses is already telling the body what to do as a whole. Fast twitch is usually required for "un-learned" resonses that is determined and processed through the "conscious" mind, communitated through the sub-conscious mind of learned responses, and then to the motor reflex/muscle responses.

- Killer -

Punch Speed has NOTHING to do with using weights or improving reflexes... Punch speed is developed with "Breathing Timing" where the timing of the punch matches your breathing. The faster you breathe, the faster the punch. The slower you breathe, the slower you punch. If the punch is out or sync with your breathing, it's like putting on the "brakes" when punching...

- Killer -

Although I agree that breathing is an important component when performing any technique, stating that it is the only factor that develops speed in punching does not seem accurate. A muscles' ablilty to be fast is based off of the amount of fast twitch I and fast twitch II, or the presense of more slow twitch muscle fibers in the body. Working and developing these muscle fibers plays a major role in devolping speed.

[obiwansbane]

^^^^ seeing as martial arts is in and of itself all about muscle memory, the twitch factor will play a large role in any situation where he will need to use the punch anyways... that being said... training this will benefit the poster... and give the desired result...

its not only whether the punch gets from point A to point B at a faster speed than it takes your opponent to get from point C to B... because if your opponent has a faster reaction time, their punch will still most likely land first... there is never just one thing that needs to be trained when looking to excel at a certain aspect...

there are always multiple things that will benefit you and help you reach the goal u have set...

what you are saying is not wrong, but it is kind of like handing in an assignment u know will get a 50% just so you can pass as opposed to adding extra work and effort to get a 100% on the assignment

[bushido_man96]

You are serously confusing "reaction time" with a "fast punch..." Reaction timing is the fast twitch muscles you refer to. A fast punch can occur at any time - which is soly dependant on breathing timing in sync with muscle contraction timing. Develop breathing timing of your lower diagphram in conjunction with your muscle contractions to execute a punch from point A (start) and point B (Kime) in unison is the key here. If the two actions are not in sync, then you will not develop speed or control in your punches - or any other technique for that matter.

I am not confusing reaction time with punch speed. Reaction time is how long it takes to respond to a stimulus; not the same as speed of movement, which is what I am talking about. If you could only punch fast with an exhalation, then punching in combination would be detrimental, because when you put together a combination of hand techniques, it is not always possible to breath out with each technique executed.

In terms of reaction timing (your fast twitch muscles you refer to), this is not realistic as to what truly occurs... Reaction timing is pre-learned or pre-determined responses of your body to a given situation. So before the fast twitch muscles are really needed for a quick response, the technique, scenario, or situation has already been learned into muscle memmory. The sub-conscious learned responses is already telling the body what to do as a whole. Fast twitch is usually required for "un-learned" resonses that is determined and processed through the "conscious" mind, communitated through the sub-conscious mind of learned responses, and then to the motor reflex/muscle responses.

This is a pretty good explanation of what reaction time is; however, it is not speed of movement. Fast twitch muscle fibers come into play with every explosive movement that you do, regardless of whether or not you are acting or reacting.

[Killer Miller]

Both of you are missing the entire point. Fast twitch muscle use is a "minor" issue in the big picture. Breathing timing is a much larger issue of development. Unless someone has mental retardation or a physical disability, their fast twitch muscles are more that sufficient for 95% of situations. Also, you are never to be so close to an oponent as to where use or reliance of fast twitch is necessary.

Everything of karate is based on development of your technique timing and understanding your oponent's timing to execute a technique. "Breathing Timing" is the development of this concept to understand syncing your muscle movement with your breathing. This concepts starts when your first approach your oponent until you leave the situation. Muscle movement without synced breathing is like having two rubber-bands as muscles pulling different directions - thus, no movement except for the rubber-band that has the greater force. If you relax one of the rubber-bands, the force or movement will move that direction without oposing force. The same thing happens with prober breathing timing - your punching action is started/executed with the exhalation of the lower diagphram contracting the muscles naturally and stop when you stop your exhale - the Kiai! The faster you exhale, the faster the muscle contraction for the punch.

So when you pick up your oponent's breathing timing of technique, which can happen in a nano second with practice, your learned responses naturally react and executes a punch (or any other technique). You exhale from the lower diagphram and execute the technique. It happens very quickly... It is not an issue of of an "unlearned" use of a fast twitch muscle response. And trust me, there is a lot more time to make that decision than what is preceived as the process being.

Finally, executing muscles for a punch without proper breathing timing will cause the upper body muscles to contract prior to breathing and actually restricts blood flow to your brain and entire body - thus, unclear thoughts to react to a situation and can also make you light-headed or dizzy in the process.

- Killer -

[bushido_man96]

I can see what you are getting at, but is not always possible to breath out on each technique, if you are doing a combination of techniques.

I do agree that Kihaps are good to add on to the end of a technique, but do you kiai at the end of every technique, even when you spar? I don't, but that is just me.

Muscle contraction is what moves the limbs or our body. The make-up of the muscle fibers is what makes a person more prone to fast, anaerobic actions, or slower (not slow), aerobic actions. It is the difference between running a marathon and running a wind sprint, essentially. Fast, explosive movements are trained and used in many sports; the martial arts is really not any different.

[P.A.L]

I can see what you are getting at, but is not always possible to breath out on each technique, if you are doing a combination of techniques.

I do agree that Kihaps are good to add on to the end of a technique, but do you kiai at the end of every technique, even when you spar? I don't, but that is just me.

Muscle contraction is what moves the limbs or our body. The make-up of the muscle fibers is what makes a person more prone to fast, anaerobic actions, or slower (not slow), aerobic actions. It is the difference between running a marathon and running a wind sprint, essentially. Fast, explosive movements are trained and used in many sports; the martial arts is really not any different.

what i do in combinations is to exhale partially, if you look at Sanchin kata they practice it too. but i don't kiai anymore ,i am done with it.

what i can't find in "killer" explanation is a solid link between the contraction of diaphragm and speed of punch,i think i can punch with the same speed if i don't breath in or out . i feel awkward when i punch during inhale though.

here is a link to Sanchin, at the very end they exhale partially.

[bushido_man96]

what i do in combinations is to exhale partially, if you look at Sanchin kata they practice it too. but i don't kiai anymore ,i am done with it.

I looked at that, and it is a little different. Not what I am used to, but I can see the merits in it.

what i can't find in "killer" explanation is a solid link between the contraction of diaphragm and speed of punch,i think i can punch with the same speed if i don't breath in or out .

This is the same way that I feel as well.

[Killer Miller]

You guys/gals are confusing breathing, breathing timing, exhaling with "kiai."

Question: What is Kiai?

Answer: Kiai (the sound or yell) is the By-Product of the "Stopping" of rapid exhalation of air from your lower diagphram when the mouth closes.

Question: What is Breathing?

Answer: Normal inhalation and exhalation.

Question: What's the difference between inhaling and exhaling?

Answer: Inhaling relaxes the contracting type of muscles and also allows oxigen into your lungs and blood stream - and in return allows good blood flow throughout your body. Exhaling contracts the lower diagphragm as well all large contracting type of muscles desired to contract - and in return contraction expends oxigen and can lead to passing out if maintained.

Question: What is Breathing Timing?

Answer: Breathing timing is the syncronization of inhaling and exhaling to match muscle relaxation and muscle contraction for a given body movement(s) or technique(s).

Now, I think you all are confusing Breathing Timing with "Kiai." No, you are not expected to kiai on every move. But Kiai is just the speeding up of normal breathing.

When you pick up a big rock, what do you do? You get centered over the rock. You relax and take a big inhale. You then pick up the rock with all your muscles centered and used at the same time by a big exhale or grunt noise. Well that grunt noise is actually a "Kiai" with your mouth closed - and if the rock is big enough, the grunt turns into a loud kiai... The faster you exhale or grunt, the faster you pick up the rock. The slower you exhale or grunt, the slower you pick up the rock. When you get the rock up and then put it on another rock, or drop the rock, you then take a big inhale and relax all muscles. This is Breathing Timing in it's simplist form.

Finally, you can use muscle contraction for "1" technique. But you can also use muscle contraction for a combination of techniques as well. But regardless if using one or multiple techniques, all actions are timed with your breathing from start to finish.

This is where years of practise comes in to play to where this concept is second nature. Your body "CAN NOT" relax without Inhaling. Your Body "CAN NOT" contract large muscles without Exhaling. Yet, people do it all the time in various sports and can't figure out why they are out of breath, get tired, have weak technique, unclear thoughts, etc...

Where does speed come into play with breathing. When moving point A to point B, whether you are doing one technique or a combination, the movement is timed with your breathing - which could be a Kiai if necessary. The faster your breath, the faster all these actions occur, the slower you breath, the slower all these actions occur. Thus, Breathing Timing...

Who were the biggest contributors that have taught this concept to me? Nishiyama, Matsura, Oishi, Shirai. This concept is one of their biggest focus in not only Kata, but also in Kumite. It definately works, but if you are not familiar with the concept, it will be difficult to understand. However, it is a very basic, simple, and natural concept to develop - but it takes time.

- Killer -

[bushido_man96]

There is no confusion, Killer Miller, I understand what you are saying. I just don't think it always applies. When you lift heavy weight, you can try to exhale fast, and expect to lift the weight fast, but the fact of the matter is that your muscles only have a certain level of strenght, and you will only lift the weight as fast as your muscles will allow.

Let's say I put 135 pounds on a bar, and proceed to do bench press. Since it is a lighter weight than my max, I can lift it multiple times, and at a faster rate; I can breath in with each downward motion, and out with each pressing motion. Fair enough. Now, lets say I put on 250 pounds. This is closer to, or may even be more than my max press. Now, at this point, I will not be able to lift the weight as fast as I could 1 rep of the 135 pounds, no matter how fast I breath, or how much I hold my breath.

Now, take running, as another example. While you are running, there are muscles that are always in either a mode of contraction or relaxation, but because of the natrual stride motion of running, you will be constantly exhaling while muscles are both contracted and relaxed at the same time. Also, if you try to breath in and out quickly with each step of a long distance run, I think you might end up hyperventilating.

Now, I do believe that this concept of breathing timing fits in well with the practice of kata and kihon; these are perfromed in a controlled manner, so this makes utilization of the concept easier. I breath out with the completion of each technique in my form. However, sparring and fighting tend to happen in a more volatile environmental state, so this makes it tougher to accomplish on each and every move.