A Question on Curriculum

[cathal]

I've noticed my sensei teaches beginners a slightly different technique than what we use. I've never noticed this before because the techniques are so closely related...as well when the students get to the advanced class (the one I'm in) they are doing the techniques properly.

I'll use the Age-Uke (upward rising block) as an example. When teaching this sensei has the new student move their arm up and then do the deflection...the arm is about a fist away from the forehead, and on a slight angel...the lats are tightened, as are the ab muscles, and the triceps. So the new student learns the basic movement. However our system actually has us draw our arm up along our tanden (centre line) so it starts off looking very much like an uppercut. Then when the fist (palm facing your nose) reaches mouth level the arm twists and deflects the attack.

It seems he uses the basic movement as a framework, then when they are comfortable with it, he introduces the rest of the technique as a refinement lecture.

What do you think about this method? Do you think it is effective? How do you teach basics like this?

[username8517]

Absolutely it's effective. We use the same principle in our school as well. In my opinion, it's much easier to give new students a broad picture and then slowly whittle it down to what it should be. New students will have a hard time graspings all the fine miniscule details of the move as probably just about everything they're learning is new to them. You don't want to overwhelm them.

Think about when you were just a couple weeks into your training. You were probably not instructed to do the age-uke they way you are doing it now. It was probably shown to you a couple times and then your sensei would let you fumble around with it. Your thought process was something like okay, my hand need to end up in this approximate position. Then when you became pretty comfortable with that, your sensei slowly started to cut off the excess junk. Your thought process then became okay, my hand need to end up in this appoximate position with this angle on the arm which eventually became okay, I need to start moving my arm in this manner and in the end my hand will be exactly this far away from my body with this angle on my arm.

From there it was refined even more and as your body starts to become more familiar with how the move is supposed to be executed correctly, your brain basically "dumps" all the old garbage. Think about it, pick a basic you've done thousands of times (if not more), like a standard chest punch; then without thinking about it, try and punch incorrectly. You'll find you're having a hard time at ot.

If you want an visual to go along with it, think about someone who carves ice with a chainsaw. First they start out with a giant block of ice. Then they get a mental picture of what the end product should look like. Then taking their chainsaw, they begin to remove large portions of the ice block. Then as time goes on, they end up taking smaller and smaller portions of ice away as the ice statue is starting to come together. Eventually, when the end product is near, they're working on it not with a chainsaw, but with a small chisel instead, taking out even the slightest imperfections until it is just that - perfect.

It's the whole walk before you run principle. And now your trained and honed moves probably don't even look the same to the trained eye.

[stoneheart]

I more prefer a principle-based method of teaching. Sure we have the "correct" way of doing things, but much of that is really just stylistic and had no real martial importance. Thus, I don't necessarily care how you form your block or strike as long as you understand how to throw it with speed, power, and accuracy even under less than ideal conditions.

[Rick_72]

I don't know, it seems to me that when you learn something correctly from the beginning it would stick in your muscle memory a lot better. Learning incorrect technique from the beginning makes it hard to change later. Besides, most students even just starting out know what an uppercut looks like.

Our "head block" is exactly the same. Looks like an uppercut, then turns into the block. The thing is that its harder to actually put your forearm and hand in the correct position if you don't do the technique correctly, and the "hook" that forms between your hand and forearm is really important for this technique, in my opinion.

[bushido_man96]

There are lots of good points here. Rick_72 makes a good point, about trying to teach it right the first time, so as to avoid bad habits. Bearich, you have a really good post as well. It really just depends on what your philosophy on learning is.

Stoneheart makes a good point as well. In the end, we just want our techniques to be effective when we need them.

[cathal]

I do remember learning this framework before the actual technique. But I also am looking back at it and feeling kind of cheated. When I learn a new technique now I'm never sure if it's the proper way or the "learning" way. I am the type of person that would prefer to learn it, and practice practice practice. I don't want to get used to doing it a certain way just to be asked to learn to do it another way a few weeks later.

Then again, Bearich did make some good points. I can see teaching those who are discouraged, learning slowly, or maybe even children that way. Because they would get a sense of accomplishment and it would help to fuel their interest.

[ninjanurse]

I agree with both schools of thought here but it really depends on the learner involved. For most, teaching a gross movement is easier and makes the student feel successful avoiding frustration for both them and you. Guided discovery is a very valid teaching technique,can be responsible for those "aha" moments that make you feel so good....and gives the student more ownership of the skill. Of course it depends on how you use this technique and your dedication to it because it does take quite a bit of forethought and analysis to achieve the result you want. I have used this technique in other areas of instruction and have found it preferable in most cases.

[username8517]

I don't know, it seems to me that when you learn something correctly from the beginning it would stick in your muscle memory a lot better. Learning incorrect technique from the beginning makes it hard to change later. Besides, most students even just starting out know what an uppercut looks like.

Absolutely. If you learn things correctly the first time it will stick with you better. I don't dispute this at all. However this is often not the case with many new students. When you start out teaching the younger belts, practically everything is new to them. Sure they might have seen some Bruce Lee movies, but for the most part they are a clean slate you must create a masterpiece on. Their brains are not going to pick up and remember every single detail about how to perform a "head block" correctly when you've just shown them eight (just throwing out a number) other "basics" to them in their first few weeks as well as got them started on their first form and/or self-defense applications.

When students first come in, they may know what an uppercut looks like, but they probably don't know the many fine details about it performing the move correctly. If you ask them to describe a proper uppercut to you (or possibly even demonstrate), you'll probably get answers that don't involve hitting with the correct knuckles, generating powers with the hips, keeping your other hand up for guard, etc.

Now an uppercut is a fairly common technique that the general public is aware of. Many people have thrown uppercuts before, even if they're just playing around. Try and put a beginner in a stance they've probably never done before such as a zenkusu dachi and see how easily they get move down. They'll probably be all over the place with how to perform the move correctly.

You'll probably have to correct the alignment of their feet for proper spacing, then adjusting their stance so the proper bend is in the front leg while the back is straight, make sure there is proper weight distribution between the legs, followed by making sure they can transition from one zenkusu dachi to another properly, and then you'll have to make sure their hips are rotated completely, etc. etc.

Even if they remember all the fine details in class there is the whole issue of retention. Your common new student is not going to be living and breathing martial arts. Instead, they're probably not going to spend but maybe an additional hour or two a week practicing outside of class--if you're lucky! In between they have real life to contend with. School, work, friends, family, and relationships; they all probably take a front seat over MA for many beginners. When they return to the next class, odds are they've forgot the majority of the details you went over last class about how to perform a head block correctly. They instead remember something akin to "okay I do something like this and my hand ends here" as I eluded to in my last post.

Our "head block" is exactly the same. Looks like an uppercut, then turns into the block. The thing is that its harder to actually put your forearm and hand in the correct position if you don't do the technique correctly, and the "hook" that forms between your hand and forearm is really important for this technique, in my opinion.

We do our jodan-uke differently, so I'm only addressing the mechanics in which you perform your block as described above. What I gather from the above quote, this is fairly close to how your perform a jodan-uke (For the sake of discussion let's say you're going to be blocking with your right hand): from your starting position, you begin to raise your right arm in an uppercut manner while beginning to retract your left, (I'm assuming you're putting hip into the intial movement to generate some power). As your right hand reaches approximately your chin/nose area, you snap your right arm into a blocking position while it continues to rise, while creating a downward slope of your forearm (once again assuming your generating power via your hips now going the opposite way). As you block falls into place, you put a hook in your block with a turn of your wrist, thus completing your block while your left hand finishes it's chamber--in your opinion the most important part of the block.

Now I tried to break the move described into three important facets of how to properly execute your jodan uke--start of move, time of transition from "punch" to "block", and execution of move/final hooking movements. Think about each of those phases and how each phase in the same move requires the body to learn and properly execute. Now compound this that when executed at full speed the body is completing the move in a fraction of a second. A lot to learn and retain at once--eespecially for those just starting in the MA world.

Now advanced belts, that's a whole different issue. They already have a solid foundation they have built and will probably retain the intricate details much better, thus eliminating the need for this slow whittling process I described in my last post.

[bushido_man96]

I do remember learning this framework before the actual technique. But I also am looking back at it and feeling kind of cheated. When I learn a new technique now I'm never sure if it's the proper way or the "learning" way. I am the type of person that would prefer to learn it, and practice practice practice. I don't want to get used to doing it a certain way just to be asked to learn to do it another way a few weeks later.

Then again, Bearich did make some good points. I can see teaching those who are discouraged, learning slowly, or maybe even children that way. Because they would get a sense of accomplishment and it would help to fuel their interest.

Seeing as you are a more advanced student, your instructor is probably giving you the meat and potatoes of the new techniques you learn. However, if you have a question about it, go ahead and ask him. If he says there is more to it, tell him that you feel ready for it, and would prefer it all up front, and that you prefer it this way.

[bushido_man96]

I agree with both schools of thought here but it really depends on the learner involved. For most, teaching a gross movement is easier and makes the student feel successful avoiding frustration for both them and you. Guided discovery is a very valid teaching technique,can be responsible for those "aha" moments that make you feel so good....and gives the student more ownership of the skill. Of course it depends on how you use this technique and your dedication to it because it does take quite a bit of forethought and analysis to achieve the result you want. I have used this technique in other areas of instruction and have found it preferable in most cases.

I agree. What I like to do is present the whole technique to the students, and then have them perfrom it. From there, you can see what they need help with, and then you can simplify it so that they can take the baby steps they need to get to it. Some people are more athleticly gifted than others, so some will pick it up faster. No need to hold them back; turn them loose. But for those that need a little extra push, we must take the time to help them out.