Touchy topic....

[Rick_72]

That was actually one of my counter arguement's to the size, and strength issue. What about someone, possibly a woman, who's 5' 2" 100 lbs? I know 12 year olds bigger than that. Is it really about strength? Or is technique enough?

The mystical thoughts that someone 5 foot tall is going to put a easy whoopin on someone that's 6' 2", 200 lbs is hogwash in my opinion. They may win the fight in the long run (because many of the Okinawan Master's are small in stature themselves, and can bring it pretty well), but its going to based on their superior technique, not size and strength, and at some point during that fight their going to get some scrapes.

As far as re-testing, my thoughts on that were that it would only be a money grab of the testing fee's. At our school, the kids are taking the same test for their junior Shodan as the adults are for their Shodan. Consider that a 10-12 year old jr Shodan is then going to have anywhere from 6-8 more years of training under their belt before their awarded their full Shodan, not to mention the required instructor hours for our style. I think retesting doesn't really make much sense. I wonder if when they reach the required age for their full Shodan, if they shouldn't just be testing for Nidan, as I'm sure by then they would have learned the requirements for it. Hmm....there's a thought.

[setboy]

If a kid gets a jr. black belt What Role will he play in the dojo?

I say no to kids getting jr. black belts (or any black belt)before 15. even at 15 the kid would have to be real Special

[harmoniouswarrior]

What about bigger teens? Would you award them a black belt earlier? And what about smaller women? Would you not award them? I for instance am 5 foot 2, thats shorter than most 14 year olds, and a lot of 12 year olds....

The exceptions are important to consider, but wouldn't sway my basic tenet: A black belt must at least have a reasonable expectation of holding her/his own against an attacker. I've personaly seen small women who could be very effective (and of course, there are many--even black belts--who may not be). In working with adolescents professionally the last two decades, have come to think their age is more relevant than size. Not always, of course, but in general. Would take a smaller 15 year old with more strength pound for pound and more maturity in using her head to avoid/escape trouble than a larger but younger student. But again, this is only my preference, and I only offer it as food for thought.

[bushido_man96]

That was actually one of my counter arguement's to the size, and strength issue. What about someone, possibly a woman, who's 5' 2" 100 lbs? I know 12 year olds bigger than that. Is it really about strength? Or is technique enough?

Very good question. Even technique may not be enough. Knowing technique does not necessarily translate to fighting ability. I know guys that don't have a lick of tangible technique, but they can scrap.

As far as re-testing, my thoughts on that were that it would only be a money grab of the testing fee's. At our school, the kids are taking the same test for their junior Shodan as the adults are for their Shodan. Consider that a 10-12 year old jr Shodan is then going to have anywhere from 6-8 more years of training under their belt before their awarded their full Shodan, not to mention the required instructor hours for our style. I think retesting doesn't really make much sense. I wonder if when they reach the required age for their full Shodan, if they shouldn't just be testing for Nidan, as I'm sure by then they would have learned the requirements for it. Hmm....there's a thought.

That is a very good question as well. Why not test them for Nidan?

[bushido_man96]

What about bigger teens? Would you award them a black belt earlier? And what about smaller women? Would you not award them? I for instance am 5 foot 2, thats shorter than most 14 year olds, and a lot of 12 year olds....

The exceptions are important to consider, but wouldn't sway my basic tenet: A black belt must at least have a reasonable expectation of holding her/his own against an attacker. I've personaly seen small women who could be very effective (and of course, there are many--even black belts--who may not be). In working with adolescents professionally the last two decades, have come to think their age is more relevant than size. Not always, of course, but in general. Would take a smaller 15 year old with more strength pound for pound and more maturity in using her head to avoid/escape trouble than a larger but younger student. But again, this is only my preference, and I only offer it as food for thought.

I think this is good food for thought! Now, it comes down to what constitutes "holding your own." Does it mean that you can kick someone in the groin, and then knock them over and run? Kick them in the leg, then in the head? Or going 3 rounds 3 minutes long and winning a sparring match? Like I mentioned earlier, there are so many variables to consider.

[Rick_72]

These variables are what I always come back to. I think it really boils down to an individual. What reason's does that individual train in the martial arts. I train in the martial arts because I enjoy all aspects of my training. I could care less about the fighting.

I fought plenty as a teenager, and into my early 20's, and can hold my own just fine. But my maturity level was lacking, because I was lacking any training to control the desire to fight. My son is 10 years old, and has been training in martial arts half of his life. Because of that training, he already understands why that aggression must be controlled. Now that I'm older and wiser, I only wish that I would have had the opportunity to learn the way he has, instead of the way I did. Martial arts, taught correctly, IMO teach's kids how to be more mature about physical confrontation, and instills in them a drive to succeed in everything they do.

Why should a kid have to "hold his own" against a 200 pound attacker? I would venture to guess that half the karateka on this board would have trouble handling a 200 pound, trained (I say trained because the practice attacker's in question are trained in the same arts that you are), attacker. Besides isn't that what his parents are for? To take care of him/her? Later on in life when their an adult they will be required to take care of themselves. How they take care of themselves as adults, will be well enhanced by the martial arts training they're receiving as kids.

The jr black belt that kids receive simply recognize those kids for their achievements in the school, and in their knowledge of a particular discipline. Kids shouldn't be just given their jr black belts based on the time they've put in, but by their knowledge of their art, just like adults. What are adult black belts given for if not to recognize the achievements of that student in a particular school/style?

The majority of the adults in our school aren't big, super strong, or lightning fast, and can't/couldn't "handle" the few that are bigger, stronger, and have trained longer. Should they not be promoted as they advance in the style? That kid with many years of experience, and training (who take it very seriously and actually know it) have just as much to offer to a school as adult Shodan's do, because they know the technique's better than the junior students and should be passing that knowledge on.

[Holland]

Personally I consider myself a traditionalist...though I do have the rank of Jr. Black Belt in my dojo.

Regardless of how long someone has been training, the earliest someone can test for a full black belt in my dojo is 15...thus they could, in theory be a ni-dan at 17 or 18, and san-dan by 21. Like was mentioned above, I have a serious problem with 12 year old ni-dans as well as 15 year old san-dans. The mental and spiritual training in martial arts should count as something and keep such things from happening, but of course it does not.

[Andrew_Patton]

well, I have to add in my two cents, honestly I was sixteen when I got my shodan rank, and I don't really think I was old enough, now granted I was a big sixteen, 5'10 and 215 lbs is pretty stocky for any person, but I still don't believe I had it.

Random mood-swings, slightly skewed techniques, know it all attitude, pretty much made me believe I was to young.

[bushido_man96]

well, I have to add in my two cents, honestly I was sixteen when I got my shodan rank, and I don't really think I was old enough, now granted I was a big sixteen, 5'10 and 215 lbs is pretty stocky for any person, but I still don't believe I had it.

Random mood-swings, slightly skewed techniques, know it all attitude, pretty much made me believe I was to young.

I can see the point that you are making. But to play devil's advocate, do you think any thoughts like this would come up if you would have had as much experience in wrestling, Muay Thai, or boxing?

[Andrew_Patton]

I can see the point that you are making. But to play devil's advocate, do you think any thoughts like this would come up if you would have had as much experience in wrestling, Muay Thai, or boxing?

yeah, to a certain extent I still believe so, because when I look at the classes that I go to where there are no ranks being handed out, everyone still has that mentality of you don't 'deserve to be here' let's face it, a kid with a black belt, or held in high esteem, is gonna be a target. For instance in my BJJ class there's a four stripe white belt, who outranks about 75% of the class, he's sixteen, and about 130 lbs, guess who always wants to roll with him? He seems to always find partners that are at least 200+ lbs and new to the class, no problem for a four striper though

As a sixteen, and seventeen year old shodan however I always ended up getting the told to warm up classes, and to relegate certain duties (sweep the floors, clean the mirror, etc.) can you imagine how a person reacts when they've been taking classes for several years on and off reacts to a 'kid' telling them that they need to sweep the floor, or some other 'household chore' granted, I wasn't the most polite teenager, but I made certain to walk on eggshells most of the time, yet with an air of authority. Also on that extent, I couldn't tell you how many times I've been drilled hard in class, by a fellow dan rank, only to have to return the favor, or sweep them and apply a lock, which are two things I've learned from judo/bjj not karate which is all an ego thing, mainly on their part.

It all really comes down to ego, most people don't like being beat, or outranked, by a kid. Now in boxing, muay thai, and wrestling on the other hand, there's no rank system to make someone stand out as a target, and in those classes (don't have a muay thai class, but my bjj instructor does have wrestling and boxing, plus I was in both when I was much younger) you don't see people spotting potential targets and sizing them up. Everyone wishes to say that they can beat up a black belt, and guess which one they're gonna pick not the older more seasoned vets... they're going for the fifteen year old dan rank that they see as being an undeserved belt.

Which I wish to point out two different things here, our kids class (8-10yrs old) only can go to green belt, our young adults (11-14 yrs) can only go to purple, and anyone older than that (up to sixteen), has to outspar me, or give me one heck of a hard time (depending on promotion rank), to be recommended for rank. We also hold segregated classes, for the kids, young adults, and adults, although we do have many adults watching the kids classes and being impressed by my fifteen year old brown belts (sankyus) let me tell you, I am impressed with the both of them makes me feel like a proud parent.

Yeesh, this got long winded fast.