What should i do? grading question

[bushido_man96]

I find all this a bit bemusing. If I come along to train in your club/style and wear a white belt, does that mean that my current grade has been taken away? Of course not. I hold the rank(s) I do in the art(s) I practice and nothing you say or do can take that away. But I don't hold rank in your system and so shouldn't expect to be acknowledged as whatever kyu or dan in your system.

Maybe you shouldn't be recognized in their system, but you should still be recognized as a black belt and accomplished martial artist.

I'm a bit confused as to whether this was directed at me or 24fightingchickens, so hopefully this makes sense coming from me. If you were to just come and train in our dojo for a couple times, your rank would in another system would be recognized since you were not a student of the dojo. However, should you start up classes, yes you would be required to start from white belt, regardless of your previous rank(s); unless you have previous rank in Shogen-Ryu. That does not mean that your previous ranks are not recognized, it just does not permit you to assume that rank in a different style.

I can understand the reasoning behind this statement. This is something that I would like to see happen more often; people from other styles coming together to share ideas as opposed to thinking inside of their own styles' box all of the time. Now, if this was my scenario, and this student decided that he wanted to train with me on a regular basis, I don't think that I would take his rank from him, and hand him a white belt. Especially if it is someone that you know personally, and you are aware of their level of skill and knowledge. If you were worried about damaging other egos in the class, bringing in someone who would "line up in front of them without paying their dues," you could work something out to avoid that situation. Would he have to learn the material? Sure, no doubt there. However, he would probably pick it up quick. That, and the fact that he could probably help most of the lower ranks with some ideas and concepts would look silly if he was explaining these things as a "white belt."

The original poster was returning to the same dojo under the same sensei with documentation as to what her legitimate rank was upon time of departure, this is why I was so adamant in saying that she should be able to keep her rank.

I agree with you here.

Myself for example, my first style of karate was Hayashi-hi Shito-Ryu, where I obtained a Shodan. When I switched over to the Matsubayashi-Ryu dojo (which was no longer affiliated with the organization, thus allowing us to transition to Shogen-Ryu), I started as a ju-kyu (White belt). I had to work my way back up to the dan ranks. My instructor still recognizes my Shodan in Hayashi-hi Shito-Ryu, we both just understand it's in a different system with a different instructer. Likewise, if I would ever to go back to my old dojo, I would expect them to recognize my Shodan, but not my current rank of Nidan in Shogen-Ryu.

I have had a similar situation myself, switching from one TKD organization to another. I had to start over, which I was fine with, because I don't usually go on any big ego trips. I am currently a second dan in the new system, and I did move up the ranks fairly quickly. Now, I have documentation of rank held in two different TKD organizations. It is the same rank in both organizations, but the difference is that if I got a 3rd dan in my current organization, and then returned to my previous one, they would recognize my rank, and require that I perform adequate physical requirements to demonstrate my rank, so to speak. I would probably have to demonstrate my rank material from the other style, but from then on, I would be expected to start learning the new organization's material. I am not saying that one is right and the other is wrong. It's just two different interpretations of how to do things.

[bushido_man96]

I never suggested otherwise. I do expect people who studied other systems to start over from scratch. Then I let them grade as fast as they can.

This is the experience that I have had.

Ranks don't equal skill to me. Kyu ranks are benchmarks for learning and improvement. The first dan rank is the final benchmark.

I personally do want my students ranks to (more or less) represent their skill level.

I think that you both make a good case here. I do believe that kyu ranks are benchmarks, inasmuch as they are a marker of what material they have learned, which techniques are new to them, and what they likely need the most work on for their next test.

I also believe that the kyu ranks should represent a certain level of skill as well. Granted, the skill levels may differ slightly from one student to the next, but there should be certain consitensies. For example, a 9th kyu will have trouble with side kicks and certain body mechanics, and even lining up certain stances. However, by 7th kyu, the kick should be smooth, and the back stance should be lined up. By 5th kyu, the student should be able to use the side kick very well in sparring or combinations, and it should be powerful.

I think if someone earns a shodan, and they take a year off and you take it away from them, you're doing something that is more likely to drive people away than it is to accomplish anything productive. Imagine a college taking away your degree because you can no longer pass the statistics final exam. Can you? I can't. But I get to keep my degree.

I agree with you here. This is a very good point. My mother is attempting to get her masters in nursing now, after graduating with her bachelors degree in 1974.

What's different about a Karate rank than a college degree. It isn't a license. It's a diploma for having taken tests and passing them. Just like a college degree.

I like your analogy here.

Edited October 28, 2006 by bushido_man96

[ninjanurse]

Two more cents from me:

Leaving as a kyu rank and returning with the expectation of holding the same rank: Kyu ranks are just preliminary steps to your first rank of shodan and are used as a measure of your progress not your ego. If the instructor did his job right the first time then the student shouldn't give it a second thought when told to wear a white belt to class.

Leaving as a dan rank: Dan ranks should be honored and students allowed to train until they are up to speed in skills and curriculum. Dan ranks from other systems should be evaluated on an individual basis and the student should be allowed to test-in when ready.

[Mike Flanagan]

I'm a bit confused as to whether this was directed at me or 24fightingchickens

It was directed at 24, I just quoted him quoting you as it gave (or so I thought) the appropriate context for my reply.

Hopefully this clarifies my point.

It does and I find myself in complete agreement.

Let me ask you this--if you had a student who obtained brown belt rank leave and come back years later, would you still recognize that rank he/she obtained under your study.

Yes I think I would (although I would reserve the right to make a judgement in individual cases). My likely course of action would be to ask them to wear a white belt for a while then ask them to put their old belt back on after they'd been training for a little. It would likely be some months though before I would consider grading them for a higher belt.

But it does really depend on the individual case.

Mike

[Mike Flanagan]

Hey, Mike, no one in this thread is talking about people coming from other systems keeping their ranks.

Apologies. I thought you'd moved on from discussing the initial case to the more general idea of people coming in from other systems (whether or not after a long break.

* I want my students ranks to represent their skills.

Which doesn't work once you get old and your own skills go downhill and yet you receive another dan rank.

I'll clarify. At the point in time that grade is awarded it should IMO (roughly) affect skill level. But grade to me is not an absolute measure anyway. If one student has to work really hard to overcome some physical limitation and shows tremendous spirit in doing so I'm not necessarily averse to grading them to a level that would normally require greater technical skill. That said, I still stand by the idea that it should roughly correspond to skill.

When it comes to higher dan grades, OK we all know this is a bit of a game anyway. Whatever integrity the system may have had at some point, it has been made a mockery of now with people grading themselves to 10th dan or even 15th dan. And of course 25 year old 5th dan masters are ten-a-penny. Personally I take no notice of what dan people are, I judge them by their ability on the mat. I prefer it if they judge me in the same manner.

One thing I do feel strongly about though is that practitioners should be improving their whole lives.

Skill levels plateau after a couple of decades of training the same thing repeatedly with good coaching. After that, it's *all* downhill. Yet we keep awarding dan ranks to senior instructors despite the fact that they aren't able to do half the things they were able to do when they were 25 or 30 years old.

This seems appalling to me. Why on earth should a practitioner continue to train the same thing repeatedly ad nauseum? Should they not be continuing to make their skillset & knowledge both broader and deeper? Of course a 60 year old can't train in the same manner as a 20 year old. Nor should they, they should be training as a 60 year old with 40 years more experience and understanding.

All the teachers I train with are getting older. They're all getting slower and less fit (at a cardiovascular level) but they're all still developing their skills and knowledge, and all improving in their ability to teach me. In such cases it seems entirely appropriate to me that dan ranking should go up. If, on the other hand, a teacher merely contents himself with his current level of knowledge and makes no effort to improve in any way then I don't see any reason for new rank to be awarded.

I personally think it is kind of mean to take someone's achievements away from them just to line everyone up in neat, tidy lines in a dojo. That seems very instructor-needs focused instead of student-needs focused to me. After all, wearing the belt - they aren't hurting anyone.

I'm not suggesting that at all, see my comments above. I don't grade someone down because their skill deteriorates, rank reflects skill (ish) at the point in time the rank was awarded.

On another note, we avoid the whole ego related measuring of belts by lining up in a circle with no grade order. Sure confuses the hell out of people who've trained elsewhere when they try jostling for the correct position in a circle.

Mike

[jaymac]

I tend to agree with alot of individuals here, but quoting everyone at this point will take up too much space. I believe if an individual leaves a system due to injury or other personal reasons and comes back within a certain time frame, they should maintain their rank and just go back through everything at their own pace to catch up. However, the initial question came from an individual who was gone from her system for 15 years! We don't know the age of this person at all. Just for an example: If she left at 8 years old and is now 23, I believe starting over at white belt may be a good idea for her. Now if she left at 20 and is now 35, retesting into the system and receiving adequate rank for her skill would probably be sufficient, but if I was that person being gone for 15 years, I would not have any problems restarting.

[arran6]

Ouch 15years. How do you do it. Cant live without Karate for 15days. lol but nyway if you havnt attended for 15 years i'd say go with the double gradings but be carefull it will be like starting from scratch so you may not get to grade all the time they may make u wait longer. But goodluck you deserve it! god 15 years...

[karate carolyn]

Hi all

Thanks again for all the feedback it really has been insightful. Just to give you an update I decided to go for the double gradings and am very pleased to be the new owner of a red belt!! Not only did I get the double but my examiner told me I was very strong in my technique which I was very chuffed about.

The icing on the cake has to be that all my fellow students really rallied together like a proper team and helped each other (we all arrived an hour early to go through it all together) and as a result we all passed our doubles!! So not only did I pass but realised what a great team we are and possibly if I hadn’t went for the grading maybe I would have missed out on that!!!!

Thanks again for all the posts and in response to arran6 yeah I don’t know what I was thinking but being a teenage girl I had other things on my mind luckily I came to senses and like you I couldn’t image life with out karate now!!

ta much

Carolyn

[bushido_man96]

Congratulations! It sounds like you have a great supporting group there with you. Keep up the good work!

[cathal]

Hi all

Thanks again for all the feedback it really has been insightful. Just to give you an update I decided to go for the double gradings and am very pleased to be the new owner of a red belt!! Not only did I get the double but my examiner told me I was very strong in my technique which I was very chuffed about.

The icing on the cake has to be that all my fellow students really rallied together like a proper team and helped each other (we all arrived an hour early to go through it all together) and as a result we all passed our doubles!! So not only did I pass but realised what a great team we are and possibly if I hadn’t went for the grading maybe I would have missed out on that!!!!

Thanks again for all the posts and in response to arran6 yeah I don’t know what I was thinking but being a teenage girl I had other things on my mind luckily I came to senses and like you I couldn’t image life with out karate now!!

ta much

Carolyn

Congrats