What should i do? grading question

[24fightingchickens]

I agree with everything you've said. However I wonder what the sensei's reply would have been had it be a Dan rank rather than a kyu rank

Well, if it was a newcomer from another school of the same style, he probably would want to at least re-test him for the same rank to collect the certification and test fees again. Also it is a way of confirming the guy can be bossed around a little and will do what you tell him.

If it was someone who had already opened a school with students that were paying fees back in to the association, then the chances of demotion go way down. In fact, your chances of having someone deny you a rank are inversely related to the number of annual test and membership fees your club generates. If you have 150 students, you can probably have your 5th dan mailed to you on request even in the Japanese-run associations.

Even in a non-profit association, someone has to pay to keep the lights on, and a guy with a bunch of students under him who leave when he leaves has more pull than someone without.

If I joined a Goju or Shito school, I'd be willing to tie on a white belt. If I was injured or if I took time off from training and my skills went downhill, I wouldn't be willing to do that in a Shotokan club. If I moved locations and they asked me to retest, I wouldn't agree to do that. I'd be willing to be assessed and watched, but I wouldn't agree to accept a lower rank from them.

To me, Recognition of Rank is like you said. It's like having someone accept your degree. Somewhere an instructor ranked this guy and it's not my business to get in the middle of that and judge it inadequate. From another art? Sure. From mine with a few differences? No. I just won't let them have any rank that I have signed until they are doing things the way I want to see them. I don't even ask to see the suffer ticket.

[Syphax]

I agree with you. It is perfectly acceptable (and wise of the school owner) to ask to examine you before accepting your rank, but if you have earned a particular rank, the style should accept it globally.

If you take a break from college and return, they don't ask you to re-test for the grades you previously earned. Your Dan certificate is like your transcript.

[Brandon Fisher]

Here is my reasoning after 15 years off of training how much will someone remember? Now if they do remember quite a bit but not all of the material if they are just a bit rusty then I would say keep the belt.

[bushido_man96]

You should be able to keep your current rank

I don't see any reason to take someone's rank away from them, either. I wrote an article called Recognition of Rank a long time ago espousing exactly the position you take above and even using the same line of reasoning.

The reasoning behind removing rank seems to be:

* I want my students ranks to represent their skills.

Which doesn't work once you get old and your own skills go downhill and yet you receive another dan rank. Try convincing your instructor after he is seriously injured in a car accident to give back his rank and start over and see how he likes it. LOL!

* I want the test fee money

Usually the real reason, which is why I asked about cost

But you have to remember that most martial arts instructors are a bit unreasonable, and there is always going to be some sort of compromise required to enjoy martial arts training. Few karate instructors are leading corporate executives with 200+ IQ's who are completely rational about everything they do.

Most are blue collar guys or regular folks who just do what their own teacher did and don't really think about how to do things differently. They just assumed that every tradition has a good reason behind it and don't mess with what they believe works.

These are all very interesting points to make. When the transition is from one system to a new one, then starting over should happen. However, through the same system, I like the points that you make. In-class testings would be a good way to track their knowledge of lower rank material, and give the instructor an idea of what the student needs to brush up on the most.

[wolfen]

often a sensei will allow you to move up to the appropriate level after your first testing (after a sabbatical). If not, try to see it as an opportunity to hone your skills and fill gaps in your knowledge

[KarateK]

It was actually my choice in my situation to regrade. I was told to return at 4th kyu and just train with some of the lower grades until I had regained my level of skill. Probably part of my reason for retraining was to prove to my senior grades that I was not just returning for an easy ride (our clubs are part run by my mum). I know several people who have come back into the club, welcomed at their previous rank.

[Mike Flanagan]

You should be able to keep your current rank

I don't see any reason to take someone's rank away from them, either.

I find all this a bit bemusing. If I come along to train in your club/style and wear a white belt, does that mean that my current grade has been taken away? Of course not. I hold the rank(s) I do in the art(s) I practice and nothing you say or do can take that away. But I don't hold rank in your system and so shouldn't expect to be acknowledged as whatever kyu or dan in your system.

* I want my students ranks to represent their skills.

Which doesn't work once you get old and your own skills go downhill and yet you receive another dan rank.

I don't agree. Dan grades must accept that their youth, speed and strength will fade over time and so should be developing their skills in other areas (assuming we're not talking about a strictly sport based system). If they're not improving in some way then, fair enough, they shouldn't expect to go up the ranks.

I personally do want my students ranks to (more or less) represent their skill level. That's why I invariably make people start over at 9th kyu regardless of their previous grade. There's a simple reason for that, thus far I've not had one student come to me from another system who was able to quickly and easily pick up the material necessary for them to be able to slot in at anything like their previous grade. Those from a karate background have invariably had little or no skill in grappling, joint-locking or throwing. Even their striking skills are sufficiently differently that they require significant modification. Likewise the grapplers have an awful lot to learn about our striking syllabus.

I currently have students who've been graded to brown belt and even 1st dan in Shotokan. Within a few weeks of joining they realise themselves that they need to work through the syllabus from the very start. None of them has had a problem with doing so. What will happen though is that they generally grade more quickly. When they know the material necessary for each successive grade, then they can take that grade without any time restrictions being imposed.

* I want the test fee money

Usually the real reason, which is why I asked about cost

Sorry, have to blow that one out of the water. I agreed with my student who has a 1st dan in Shotokan that I will only charge him for every other grade (at least for the first few grades) - given that he should grade fairly quickly. I'm probably making a loss on grading him.

Mike

[username8517]

I find all this a bit bemusing. If I come along to train in your club/style and wear a white belt, does that mean that my current grade has been taken away? Of course not. I hold the rank(s) I do in the art(s) I practice and nothing you say or do can take that away. But I don't hold rank in your system and so shouldn't expect to be acknowledged as whatever kyu or dan in your system.

I'm a bit confused as to whether this was directed at me or 24fightingchickens, so hopefully this makes sense coming from me. If you were to just come and train in our dojo for a couple times, your rank would in another system would be recognized since you were not a student of the dojo. However, should you start up classes, yes you would be required to start from white belt, regardless of your previous rank(s); unless you have previous rank in Shogen-Ryu. That does not mean that your previous ranks are not recognized, it just does not permit you to assume that rank in a different style.

The original poster was returning to the same dojo under the same sensei with documentation as to what her legitimate rank was upon time of departure, this is why I was so adamant in saying that she should be able to keep her rank. Now if she had gone across town or to another style, she should start from the beginning--but not in the same dojo as where she had trained before.

Myself for example, my first style of karate was Hayashi-hi Shito-Ryu, where I obtained a Shodan. When I switched over to the Matsubayashi-Ryu dojo (which was no longer affiliated with the organization, thus allowing us to transition to Shogen-Ryu), I started as a ju-kyu (White belt). I had to work my way back up to the dan ranks. My instructor still recognizes my Shodan in Hayashi-hi Shito-Ryu, we both just understand it's in a different system with a different instructer. Likewise, if I would ever to go back to my old dojo, I would expect them to recognize my Shodan, but not my current rank of Nidan in Shogen-Ryu.

Hopefully this clarifies my point.

I don't agree. Dan grades must accept that their youth, speed and strength will fade over time and so should be developing their skills in other areas (assuming we're not talking about a strictly sport based system). If they're not improving in some way then, fair enough, they shouldn't expect to go up the ranks.

I am going to have to disagree with this to an extent. Dan ranks who choose not to train to the level they need to will loose speed and strength as they age, but this is not an all-encompassing statement. With Dan ranks comes responsibilities to teach lower ranks, thus taking away from training time they had when they were merely kyu ranks. The Dan ranks must then find and/or make additional training time to adjust, if not exceed, the time they lost teaching. However, I have seen quite a few high ranking Dan move with tremendous speed and strength. Like you said, the key is to continue training.

I personally do want my students ranks to (more or less) represent their skill level. That's why I invariably make people start over at 9th kyu regardless of their previous grade. There's a simple reason for that, thus far I've not had one student come to me from another system who was able to quickly and easily pick up the material necessary for them to be able to slot in at anything like their previous grade. Those from a karate background have invariably had little or no skill in grappling, joint-locking or throwing. Even their striking skills are sufficiently differently that they require significant modification. Likewise the grapplers have an awful lot to learn about our striking syllabus.

I currently have students who've been graded to brown belt and even 1st dan in Shotokan. Within a few weeks of joining they realise themselves that they need to work through the syllabus from the very start. None of them has had a problem with doing so. What will happen though is that they generally grade more quickly. When they know the material necessary for each successive grade, then they can take that grade without any time restrictions being imposed.

By all means, I agree that if people come in from other systems have them start at the bottom. I did as I mentioned earlier. And by these two paragraphs you listed here, it sounds like you're talking about people new to the system as you specifically mention those coming in from Shotokan to Shorin-Ryu.

Let me ask you this--if you had a student who obtained brown belt rank leave and come back years later, would you still recognize that rank he/she obtained under your study. Granted their skills would be rusty, but would you recognize that rank regardless of what needed to be touched up on? If so, we're on the same wavelength, as we were previously comparing apples to oranges. If not, then I highly doubt either of us would be able to persaude the other to change and we can just chalk this up to a healthy debate.

[24fightingchickens]

But I don't hold rank in your system and so shouldn't expect to be acknowledged as whatever kyu or dan in your system.

I never suggested otherwise. I do expect people who studied other systems to start over from scratch. Then I let them grade as fast as they can.

* I want my students ranks to represent their skills.

Which doesn't work once you get old and your own skills go downhill and yet you receive another dan rank.

I don't agree. Dan grades must accept that their youth, speed and strength will fade over time and so should be developing their skills in other areas (assuming we're not talking about a strictly sport based system). If they're not improving in some way then, fair enough, they shouldn't expect to go up the ranks.

Skill levels plateau after a couple of decades of training the same thing repeatedly with good coaching. After that, it's *all* downhill. Yet we keep awarding dan ranks to senior instructors despite the fact that they aren't able to do half the things they were able to do when they were 25 or 30 years old.

Ranks don't equal skill to me. Kyu ranks are benchmarks for learning and improvement. The first dan rank is the final benchmark. After that, they mutate into representations of learning extra kata and phasing into an instructor. After 3rd dan, mostly they are awarded for having a lot of students or for tenure in the organization - or just as a reward for continuing to toe the line.

I personally do want my students ranks to (more or less) represent their skill level.

OK. Do that. That's cool.

I don't think it works. But you can make it that if you want. I think if someone earns a shodan, and they take a year off and you take it away from them, you're doing something that is more likely to drive people away than it is to accomplish anything productive. Imagine a college taking away your degree because you can no longer pass the statistics final exam. Can you? I can't. But I get to keep my degree.

What's different about a Karate rank than a college degree. It isn't a license. It's a diploma for having taken tests and passing them. Just like a college degree.

I personally think it is kind of mean to take someone's achievements away from them just to line everyone up in neat, tidy lines in a dojo. That seems very instructor-needs focused instead of student-needs focused to me. After all, wearing the belt - they aren't hurting anyone.

And I doubt any instructor or engages in such a practice would ever be willing to give his rank up and go back to white belt if he was seriously injured in a car accident and had to take a year off.

But if you want to do that, hey, give a whirl. People have been doing it for years. I think it usually just creates resentment more than it results in effective learning for the student, but I could be dead wrong.

thus far I've not had one student come to me from another system

Hey, Mike, no one in this thread is talking about people coming from other systems keeping their ranks.

[Rick_72]

I tend to agree with the keeping of your belt. What I meant when I said retesting was in order, was basically that you come back in and test offline between you and your instructor as you get back into shape. But you shouldn't really give up the belt recognizing your previous achievements.

Students from other styles that come to our school are even allowed to maintain their previous style's belt color. They just have to learn our system from 10th Kyu on up, and are awarded only certificates until they achieve the next grade in our style from what grade their wearing.