Is grappling really a good thing for self-defense?

[Zapatista]

I'm sorry if this has been posted before, but I did a quick look and didn't find this topic. My question is, is extensive knowledge of grappling (such as BJJ for example) really going to help you in a fight these days?

The reason I ask, is there have been tons of stories about somebody knowing martial arts and a mugger tries to attack them and the fight back using their martial art skills and kick the mugger's butt, but then the mugger goes and sues the one who he tried to attack. There is more concern of "going to far" when defending yourself. This is where grappling comes in. Most joint-locks and such can do serious damage (unless you're talking minor joints) and from my understanding can do permanent damage (such as an ankle lock I believe can snap the tendon). Doing permanent damage (or even just serious damage) could result in you getting in trouble. So what do you do? You can't just say "I'll let go if you promise not to attack me again", because while the mugger probably realizes that he'll get his butt kicked again, not all muggers are rational in their thought process.

One exception of this would be chokes. I can see putting on a triangle or rear naked choke and just doing it until the mugger goes unconcious and then leave or get the police and come back to the scene of the crime where the mugger is passed out. But even then, you may be able to get into trouble if something bad happens to the mugger while he's out cold.

So, are my claims invalid? Or does what I say make sense, but there are solutions to the problem?

[bushido_man96]

People will sue for anything these days. If you are worried about trying to avoid a lawsuit when trying to defend yourself, then you will not be very focused on the task at hand, regardless of the style that you use.

What it comes down to is use of force. You would have to check the statutes for where you live to see what the laws are regarding use of force.

That stated, grappling can be very effective for self-defense, because the holds that you apply can be used to restrain the aggressor until help arrives, or as you stated, you can just knock them out, and call the police. Any style can be useful for self-defense, as long as it is trained properly.

[elbows_and_knees]

here's the thing - in regards to damaging a joint, choking a guy out, etc., these things are incidental. I applied an arm bar, he fought and it snapped. We struggled and fell, he hit his head on the ground. without a witness, it's hard to say otherwise. I may not have meant for you to hurt yourself - I only wanted to keep you from hurting me. On the other hand, if I strike you, I obviously meant to do it. guilty.

murder is the same way. you can intentionally kill a person and get several years to life in prison. However, if you kill them accidentally, you can be out in like 10 years or less. one of my best friends was shot and killed, but the guy who shot him was actually trying to shoot someone else. Consequently, he only got an involuntary manslaughter charge and was out of prison in 5 years.

[Zapatista]

You make a good point Elbows about the grappling stopping somebody from hurting you whereas striking is intentional damage. I never thought about it that way.

[Rainbow_Warrior]

I think grapling is great. If you know how to do it well..you can reduce most of ´´normal ´´ people.

I notice that most people here cares about the legal thing when you are atacked.I saw it in lot of posts...... I don´t know perfectly the american law..but I do know enought of my country law and universal bases in western world

In criminal law , defense (or defence for brits ) is legitimated whit EVERY one of this reqs :

1-You are atacked

2-You DID not provocate the agressor enought (Insulting is not enought.But if you hit a man with a stick , and he defends himself with a knife , and you kill him breaking his head with the stick, you go JAIL)

3-You counter attack with the same level of power.That means , gun powder with gun powder , cold weapon to cold weapon , body to body. This can have exceptions , for people with physical problems , women...Ill persons, kids ,etc.And the force used should be the minimal to avoid unnecesary damage.

4-This is valid for defending yourself or a third person

So...killing a guy accidentally in a fight , when you are defending your life, generally do not lead you to a cage. And if you are a worker guy , head of your family with dependants.....Normally , you are safe.

[ps1]

Usually, to win a lawsuit, the attacker would have to prove that you used excessive force. That is, he tried to punch you and you stabbed him or broke his neck(as an example). It would also need to be proven that you did so malicously.

If someone is trying to stab you and you manage to choke him out or break a limb, you will be safe in most every court room.

Heck, most chokes aren't fatal and just give the guy a headache when he wakes up.

Grappeling is very good in a self defense situation. It's really all about use of force.

[Zapatista]

I guess I overly assumed the law would do more against the defender based on the stories I've heard about lawsuits against the defender and some of the things that I learned in the few weeks that I did Hapkido. Everything you all are saying makes complete sense. Thanks for replying and working with me and not resorting to insults or anything (which I've seen on other issues on different message boards).

[bushido_man96]

here's the thing - in regards to damaging a joint, choking a guy out, etc., these things are incidental. I applied an arm bar, he fought and it snapped. We struggled and fell, he hit his head on the ground. without a witness, it's hard to say otherwise. I may not have meant for you to hurt yourself - I only wanted to keep you from hurting me. On the other hand, if I strike you, I obviously meant to do it. guilty.

This is an approach I had never thought of. Very creative, and I kind of like it. It is definetly hard to explain how a guy "fell" onto your fist!

[bushido_man96]

I guess I overly assumed the law would do more against the defender based on the stories I've heard about lawsuits against the defender and some of the things that I learned in the few weeks that I did Hapkido. Everything you all are saying makes complete sense. Thanks for replying and working with me and not resorting to insults or anything (which I've seen on other issues on different message boards).

Even as a standup fighter, you are going to have to do a seriously excessive amount of damage to the other guy to have a bad case go his way. As long as you can do what is necessary to stop the threat, and nothing more, you should be fine. One major thing is to help yourself out by not kicking them when they hit the ground, and you are standing. This is the advantage of grappling; most likely, you will both end up on the ground at the same time, so the level of threat is still the same (barring the use of weapons).

[Jiffy]

Unfortunately as already stated, if you worry about a lawsuit when defending yourself, you will not be focused on the task at hand.

Our old sensei always used to say, survive the street first, survive the courts second.

Essentially, if you do not defend yourself in the street, you will not need to worry about defending yourself in court, cos you might not be alive for the opportunity.

With that in mind, there are a couple of things you can do to improve your chances in court.

1) Use only enough force necessary to stop the violence

2) Make sure he doesn't know who you are when he "goes to sleep for a little while"

They can't prosecute you if they don't know who you are.