Kata-based Takedowns

[cathal]

I'm sure there are many kata which one can interpret takedowns, submissions etc. This week we were working with Heian Yondan ( http://www.ucc.ie/karate/Heian%20Yondan.jpg ) and I was tasked with working on bunkai with some fo the beginners. So we went through our typical bunkai routine of first having the student think about the technique and then work out possible attacks, defences, etc.

One of the students applied takedowns, locks, and submissions in almost every movement. I had advised him that it is fine to go with a particular theme of course but to keep thinking about different applications to see how creative you can be.

In reviewing that student's interpretation of this kata I find a lot of the techniues can be seen as a lock, a takedown, and submission. So are there any other kata out there you've seen with a lot of these techniques? Also, in reviewing this kata's diagram (above) what types of takedowns do you think you could apply?

[bushido_man96]

I just finished reading a book on TKD Hae Sul, which is essentially bunkai for TKD. There were a lot of interpretations for locks and takedowns, some easily seen, and some not. Simple double forearm blocks were used to throw someone down, and middle blocks were used as arm locks. Picture the retraction hand holding the opponents arm straight, and the blocking arm braced behind the elbow. Lots of interpretations, in lots of different places.

[ninjanurse]

I agree here. There are many interpretations of each technique thus many variations of bunkai. Self discovery and guided discvocery are excellent methods to teach students the bunkai and quite possibly discover "new" ones....and as you gain experience you will begin to discover the hidden applications within each such as takedowns, armbars, etc. A great tool for teaching!

Also, some blocks or strikes may obviously lead to a takedown and some may not. How far do you take it before it becomes impractical and cumbersome?

[cathal]

I agree wholeheartedly that with time comes insight into the techniques. I also agree that more and more practice is going to help you determine what is going to work and what will not. This kata, moreso than the others I already know, seems to show me to similarities with the Jiu-Jitsu I took when I was younger.

[elbows_and_knees]

steps 3 - 5 - ko uchi gari

24 - 25 can be o soto gari if you reap instead of knee

I can see a couple of locks, but those are the only two obvious throws I see. that was my favorite kata though - I may play with it later if I have time.

[ps1]

In the manner I was trained, nearly everything in kata dealt with close quarter combat and they contain far more takedowns than I typically see people teach.

For example, the reason we cresent step is to move around a leg for reaps and such. That's just a really basic and small example, but you get the jist of what I mean. Tons of moves are/ can be interpreted as takedowns and locks.

There is even theory that all of the Tekki kata are ground techniques from on the opponents back. I've messed with it a little, seems possible.

[Jiffy]

If you have a look at "Karate Jutsu" (originally called Rentan Goshin Karate Jutsu) by Gichin Funakoshi (the man who created Hein Yondan.... well, modified it from the original Pinan Yondan) you will find there are 6 throws that he applied between the 19 kata. Many have since found others though.

[cathal]

Thanks for your input, I'll look into the book & experiment a bit more.

[bushido_man96]

Perhaps Iain Abernethey's books and site may have some more to offer here as well?

[cathal]

That guy is always helpful.