The True Martial Artist

[Jiffy]

I'll give you that, but by very definition, martial means war. none of the things you guys are talking about will help you when it comes to that, which what triangle and I are saying.

You are also correct. While there are many elements that are added to Martial Arts, the primary orginal purpose was the art of war.

[Rick_72]

Thought I'd just throw this up there......

The American Heritage Dictionary defines the word Martial as this:

1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.

2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.

3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.

This is my two cents, not from the dictionary:

So, with that I guess we have to define what characteristic's are befitting of a warrior. Of course having the characteristic's befitting a warrior doesn't make one a warrior, just means they have the character that a warrior should have. If an individual wants to have those characteristic's befitting a true warrior, than that individuals character needs to be of the highest caliber. A warrior without morale courage, or compassion is a menace to all around him. When warrior's without high morale standards take a battlefield the end result is massacred non combatants, genecide, the basic breakdown of humanity and civilization in the area their operating in.

[bushido_man96]

Now, another question is can you view martial arts like other athletic activities? Take football, for instance. It can be used to build physical skills, like the martial arts can, and it teaches things like teamwork. However, there are some terrible people out there that are great football players. I think the same could be said for the martial arts as well.

Boxing and wrestling don't teach moral and ethical values as part of their core curriculum. However, we still consider them martial arts. Are they now not martial arts, because we realize this?

These people in football etc that you describe are great athletes, but they are not good sportsmen. We often talk about good sportsmanship. The applies to boxing etc. Some of them are great fighters. Some are great fighters AND good martial artists.

I am not saying that I think the martial arts should not teach morals and ethics. I think we should do these things, because it is the right thing to do. I will teach them. However, I don't believe that these things should begin with the martial arts.......it is the job of parents to lay down the morals and ethics that we are to grow up with.

Can't argue with that! Parents should be teaching these values right from the get-go. Problem is, the majority don't.

The point you make about being a sportsman is a good one. However, they still get to play the sport. Its kind of the same with the topic here.

[bushido_man96]

I feel that a great warrior is only defined by what he does in his time. I guess what I am saying is that a warrior has to test himself in the heat of battle for life and death. Musashi had this chance. Napolean had this chance. Washington had this chance. They were all great warriors, but they are defined by the times in which they lived, because of the wars. If the wars would not have happened, then what would things have been like? I guess what I am saying is that you can say you are a warrior, but not many will know if you don't have an opportunity to prove it.

Maybe this is a little bit of an off-topic rant. Sorry if it sounds that way. It kind of stemmed from the dictionary definition post. But it does relate to the martial artists definition.

[Rick_72]

I feel that a great warrior is only defined by what he does in his time. I guess what I am saying is that a warrior has to test himself in the heat of battle for life and death. Musashi had this chance. Napolean had this chance. Washington had this chance. They were all great warriors, but they are defined by the times in which they lived, because of the wars. If the wars would not have happened, then what would things have been like? I guess what I am saying is that you can say you are a warrior, but not many will know if you don't have an opportunity to prove it.

Maybe this is a little bit of an off-topic rant. Sorry if it sounds that way. It kind of stemmed from the dictionary definition post. But it does relate to the martial artists definition.

I think your post (and my definition post) absolutely relate to this topic, simply because of the definition of the word martial. It has been argued here that to be a good martial artist doesn't require the moral's associated with being a warrior (not by all, but by some). That all is required is the fighting ability associated with war like arts (ancient or otherwise).

Since the definition of martial is clearly associated with those aspects of someone that is warrior like, then you clearly have to have those morals that are associated with being a warrior. In my opinion a warrior is not only defined by his skill in war, but also by his compasion to the weak, his giving nature to those in need, the maturity to know when to turn his fighting skills on and off to meet the need of the situation, and the ability to see the difference between right and wrong. I believe these morals to be the difference between a true warrior and a tyrant or conqueror that self proclaims themselves a warrior. Warriors should have an ethos they could be proud to proclaim in any circle.

Does the training in martial arts, coupled with the heart of a warrior make you a no kidding warrior? No it doesn't. Warriors are those that have fought, or are training to fight for a cause, like the survival of their people or stopping an unjust aggression. Which means a warrior doesn't neccessarily need to be enlisted or commisioned in a standing army. Anyone that fights for a just cause with thier actions is a warrior in my mind (that doesn't just apply to those that fight in the physical sense). Those that train simply to better themselves, or to win fame or money with their training are not simply given the title of warrior (not that makes them less of a person, they just aren't training to be a true warrior), until their training takes on a reason besides themselves.

Making the comparison between those that train in martial arts, and athletes may be fair in some sense, just because of the athletic nature of training. However, real martial arts, and going with the topic of this tread "a good martial artist", is about more than just fighting ability or tournament trophies. Its about learning the true warrior spirit, even if you haven't yet earned the title of warrior.

[elbows_and_knees]

The irony is that Im somewhat saddened by people that think martial arts is more about respect/discipline than it is about fighting. Look at any martial arts tournament and tell me whos regarded as being the best martial artist- its the guy whos carrying the trophy- regardless of how nice a guy he may or may not be, hes regarded as the best because he beat everyone else.

Martial Arts and Sporting events are two different things.

I really don't think so. In reality, the guys competing in MMA are living more along the lines of the warrior than the "martial artists" of today who train for self defense and nothing more. we train hard. We test our skills in combat (as close to real as allowed). There is a camaraderie among many competitors.... The romanticized life of the warrior is now carried out through sport fighters.

"martial artists" train for a possibility. Sport fighters train for an inevitability.

[elbows_and_knees]

Thought I'd just throw this up there......

The American Heritage Dictionary defines the word Martial as this:

1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.

2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.

3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.

This is my two cents, not from the dictionary:

So, with that I guess we have to define what characteristic's are befitting of a warrior. Of course having the characteristic's befitting a warrior doesn't make one a warrior, just means they have the character that a warrior should have. If an individual wants to have those characteristic's befitting a true warrior, than that individuals character needs to be of the highest caliber. A warrior without morale courage, or compassion is a menace to all around him. When warrior's without high morale standards take a battlefield the end result is massacred non combatants, genecide, the basic breakdown of humanity and civilization in the area their operating in.

I should reiterate. there have been many well known masters who have killed people. some made a living doing it. moral is not a characteristic of a "warrior". once again, you are ADDING things to make it fit your definition. A warrior is merely someone who has been in battle. period.

As for courage, a "warrior" with no courage will quickly end up beaten or dead. That is not a characteristic, it's a byproduct of training.

warrior

5 entries found for warrior.

To select an entry, click on it.

warriorcold warriorroad warriorweekend warriorBlack Warrior

Main Entry: war·rior

Pronunciation: 'wor-y&r, 'wor-E-&r, 'wär-E- also 'wär-y&r

Function: noun

Usage: often attributive

Etymology: Middle English werreour, from Anglo-French *werreier, guerreier, from warreier, guerreier to wage war, from werre war -- more at WAR

: a man engaged or experienced in warfare; broadly : a person engaged in some struggle or conflict

Now, where does it say anything about morale or compassion?

Main Entry: fight·er

Pronunciation: 'fI-t&r

Function: noun

: one that fights : as a (1) : WARRIOR, SOLDIER (2) : a pugnacious or game individual (3) : 1BOXER 1

still no mention.

Main Entry: martial art

Function: noun

: any of several arts of combat and self defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport

- martial artist noun

STILL no mention.

Like I've been saying, there are things that have over time become associated with martial arts - the things you guys are mentioning - mainly through arts that have been influenced by shaolin. You won't find such things in shuai chiao, nor will you find them in non asian arts. The closest thing you will find in non asian arts is the concept of chivalry, and that was influenced by the church. Notice the pattern? buddhist monks...warrior code. zen...bushido. christian church... chivalry.

[Rick_72]

Ok let me put this in better context for you......

I'm a U. S. Marine. I've been to Iraq on three seperate tours. I don't know if I fit the definition of warrior or not, make your own decision on that, but I've spent the better part of my life (the last 15 of 34 years) training for combat, and the better part of the last 4 in the sand.

Let's say I'm driving through Fallujah or Ramadi (doesn't really matter which their both crawling with enemy fighters), and I start taking fire in a crowded market place. Do I tell my machine gunner to start lighting up everything moving because I'm taking a few rounds of small arms fire, or do I tell him to hold his fire until he has a clearly defined enemy target that doesn't pose the risk of killing several innocent civilians? Mind you, I've already decided that a single contact firing a few small arms rounds at my unit doesn't pose an immediate threat to my people (because if the threat was more significant, the answer would be much different). The answer to that question is quite simple, at least to me it is. That's the maturity to use the power in your hands properly in extreme situations. Its also the difference between a warrior and a clown with some skills.

A warrior has to the compasion for humanity to make a moral decision, before he/she cuts lose with everything they have. A murderer may have the same physical skill as a warrior, but lacks the moral courage to use those skills properly.

[Rick_72]

I really don't think so. In reality, the guys competing in MMA are living more along the lines of the warrior than the "martial artists" of today who train for self defense and nothing more. we train hard. We test our skills in combat (as close to real as allowed). There is a camaraderie among many competitors.... The romanticized life of the warrior is now carried out through sport fighters.

"martial artists" train for a possibility. Sport fighters train for an inevitability.

Your kidding me right? You think because two guys step into a cage to beat the snot out of each other makes them warriors? The only cause their fighting for is themselves. Like I said before, there's nothing wrong with what their doing, its great entertainment, and its how they feed themselves and their families. But they certainly are not putting their lives on the line for people they've never met, a certain way of life, or some higher meaning of life they live by. Not warriors. Professional athletes, maybe even gladiators, but NOT warriors.

[HG]

You can have a high level of martial skill & have no moral fiber what so ever. Martial skills are not dependent upon good ethics. What defines a martial artist is subjective to the personality, value judgement & enviroment (just to name a few) of the individual.

Edited September 14, 2006 by HG