The Uselessness of Kata

[cross]

Thats an interesting analogy, i have heard alot of different ones in reference to kata training... like it being part of the alphabet and a few others.

While they sound pretty good, and are often used by kata people to justify training in kata so much, they dont address the reality of how much training methods affect the effectivness of a person at a given task.

[bushido_man96]

While they sound pretty good, and are often used by kata people to justify training in kata so much, they dont address the reality of how much training methods affect the effectivness of a person at a given task.

I agree, cross. But, if you get a chance to read any of Abernethey's material, I think you may see that it is possible to get on the right track with kata practice and interpretation.

Unfortunately, I don't think enough schools and instructors do it this way (my school and myself included).

[cross]

I agree, cross. But, if you get a chance to read any of Abernethey's material, I think you may see that it is possible to get on the right track with kata practice and interpretation.

I have read quiet a few of his articles, mostly while i still trained in karate. He does take a more practical approach to training. But it still seems that he(like most traditional martial artists) is "finding" things in traditional kata, that are similar to alot of techniques that are out there is other arts. If your goal is to learn a technique to use in self defence, then doing kata, IMO, is the longest way to acheiving this goal.

If we take an example, a fiqure 4 arm lock(this could be replaced with any technique you like)....

The kata way:

Perform the whole kata a number of times, doing an X-block in one part. Consider the applications of an X-block.... Work out that the arm/hand position sortof looks like something you saw a bjj guy do in ufc the other day... Do the kata a few more times, work on the "hidden" application of x-block with a complient partner a few times and move on.

The non-kata way:

Instructor demonstrates the figure 4 lock. Talks you through the key points of the technique. You practice with a complient partner, any kinks in technique are ironed out. Peform technique with added resistance from partner. Perform technique in all out sparring/scenario situation.

This is a slightly exaggerated example, but is similar to how things happen in alot of schools.

That ofcourse only addresses the "learning a technique for self defence" part of training... if you are doing it to maintain the art or tradition, or because you enjoy the body expression you can perform from kata, then im all for it...

Like many have said in the topic already, to each his own.

[bushido_man96]

I can see your points, cross.

Look at it this way, though. You learn the form. Let's say this takes the majority of the class. Then, in the next class, you spend time ironing out the techniques of the form. Then, you take the first one, and begin applying it. I think this can be a practical approach, and can work, in a shorter amount of time.

Although I admit that it can be done without kata, this shows how it can be done.

Although, their is the argument that the time taken learning the kata could be used to applying the techniques themselves. This is a point that kata will always have to deal with.

[kikal0t]

"Besides, you can't spell karate without kata. (I'm so clever)"

indeed you are parkerlineage! and therin lies the answer kata is an inherent part of karate!

on a serious note, i used to think that kata was useless as well Tokkan, i thought it was a means of getting your next belt by doing some elaborate dance around the dojo. It wasn't until sensei pulled the kata apart and showed us the meaning of it, the bunkai that the penny dropped. each move has an application that can be used in a real situation not just the dojo. so in a way by perfecting ur kata, ur perfecting ur bunkai and ur overall performance, like dominos, a knock-on effect.

[sonofkanga]

As i have stated before Kata is done for:

1.tradition

2.fun

3.uniformity

4.self training tool

all the rest is embelishment

[Adonis]

I am having a brain lapse. What is the guys name? Oh well. He was in Okinawan karate practioner I forgot the Ryu he was in. He only did one Kata and that was Naihanchi Kata. Either way, thats all you need is ONE Kata to help you remember techniques of your system or disecting the kata for bunkai. If your into kata at all.

A little imagination. That block or strike, can be a throw, a grab, a lock, a break, or what ever your imagination can produce. A step can be a kick, so a simple kata like Naihanchi shodan or Pinon shodan, or if your Parker guy short form one or long form 1 is all you need.

[Adonis]

However to summarize what Cross said and what I said. Cross is very correct in what he said, regarding training develpment to apply the move.

1. Practice the mechancis of the move with non-resistant partner.

2. Practice and develope the technique with diffrent levels or resistance from a parner.

3. Pracice while sparring/rolling .

Also forms are just refence for techniques, with the use of note pads, computers, and video and DVD instructionals. That part is not needed any longer for technique refrence.

If you do them for fun, or relaxation, or just for the purity of the art great. but Kata is not neccicity for self defense, or developing fighting ability.

[bushido_man96]

I know I am playing both sides of the fence here, but hey, I can do that!

The thing about forms is that it was used as a tool to remember the principles of a system. It was great, in its time. However, the martial arts have evolved to a point where it is not as necessary as it used to be as a training tool. I know that there are many who feel this way. It may be the case.

However, I still like forms for what they are, and for the variety that they offer. I can see benefits in both forms training and non-forms training.

[NightOwl]

It's also evolved to the point where most of the people who practice martial arts can read and write (as well have ready access to paper). You can now draw, or even better, video record teechnuqes in order to preserve them as opposed to keeping them in a form. I have no problem if the other guy wants to devote a lot of time to forms...more power to him. But when forms take of 1/3 plus of traing time (and another 1/3 being exercising and aerobics), you have little time for actual martial applications. Plus since most places rank by kata known, your belt has very little connection to martial ability anymore (I say anymore because you used to have to belt it out with others for ranking bare knuckled style...even in the US when TMA were less mainstream).

Edited March 4, 2007 by NightOwl