The Uselessness of Kata

[patusai]

Maybe I misunderstood the subject. I always felt that karate (traditionally) and kata were synonomus. Masters (old ones) used kata. Many of them also developed their techniques in the street by getting into fights. Regarding present day kata, over the years, especially in the most recent years modern day teachers and masters have changed kata to suit their own style, needs and because of other such things. Far too many of them changed kata because they did not fully understand the specifics of kata. Some, especially after Bruce Lee spoke about the uselessness of kata, dropped kata all together. Sometimes when one can't see usefullness in something you can't find it because, frankly, there is nothing useful there. Sometimes it is because one is not looking hard enough.

Frankly, kata originally was used to hide techniques because the study of karate was outlawed. Kata contains "hidden" meanings, if you will, within them for that reason.

To say that the best fighters do not train in kata may very well be accurate but then those fighters have a killer instinct within them that most other people do not have. I am not suggesting that they are bad. They have a competitive edge far beyond that of one who has a competator mentality. I do see benefit in training in street tactics. Some of the really good, at least in my opinion, schools also prepare a student with this training as well.

As far as I am concerned, I do not , or should I say I did not, practice so that I can defeat them all and everyone. That would take far to much time and energy and, frankly, there are other things in my life would suffer as a result. These other things are a bit more important in life to me. I am not going to live forever regardless of how intense I train. Also, I do not have the "killer" instinct within me. My instructors did not require that I defeat all non-black belts before receiving my black belt and after my black belt if I lost to a brown belt or a streetfighter (who only wore a black belt that he bought at Kmart) my black belt was not taken away.

I know that this probably does not make me a good martial artist or a karateka but then all I want to do is be the best I can be given life happens. I do admire those who can spend the time and energy in the ultra intense training and there are times that I wish I had that ability too. There are other times that I do not and that I appreciate the balance that my teacher gave me because that balance was right for me personally.

[cross]

Maybe I misunderstood the subject. I always felt that karate (traditionally) and kata were synonomus. Masters (old ones) used kata. Many of them also developed their techniques in the street by getting into fights. Regarding present day kata, over the years, especially in the most recent years modern day teachers and masters have changed kata to suit their own style, needs and because of other such things. Far too many of them changed kata because they did not fully understand the specifics of kata. Some, especially after Bruce Lee spoke about the uselessness of kata, dropped kata all together. Sometimes when one can't see usefullness in something you can't find it because, frankly, there is nothing useful there. Sometimes it is because one is not looking hard enough.

Traditionally your correct, karate without kata was probably not karate. However, the relevance of kata in the 21st century is what we are discussing. Perhaps those modern "masters" who changed the kata did realise the specifics of the kata, and also realised that the kata where in fact specifically designed for the circumstances at the time of their creation. Times have changed since then, everything has evolved and moved forward. Why not kata?

Frankly, kata originally was used to hide techniques because the study of karate was outlawed. Kata contains "hidden" meanings, if you will, within them for that reason.

So without actually asking the person who made these "hidden" meanings, any interpretation is just speculation. No matter how educated it may seem.

To say that the best fighters do not train in kata may very well be accurate but then those fighters have a killer instinct within them that most other people do not have. I am not suggesting that they are bad. They have a competitive edge far beyond that of one who has a competator mentality. I do see benefit in training in street tactics. Some of the really good, at least in my opinion, schools also prepare a student with this training as well.

However, take 1 person, who wants to learn how to defend themself, if they train kata the same way the majority of traditional schools teach it, along with the other training they do applicable skills will be limited. Take the same person and teach them a system that involves alive drills, scenarios, shadow boxing, bag work, partner drill, resistance from partners and in the majority(if not all) cases, you will find the second offers superior results in terms of self defence training.

Sure, doing kata you might be able to learn effective defence skills over an extended period of time, assuming your school looks deeply enough and practices enough of the applications against pressure and resistance from opponents. But what happens until then, you have a false sense of security and ability because you do martial arts, but when it comes to the crunch your skills are very limited.

As far as I am concerned, I do not , or should I say I did not, practice so that I can defeat them all and everyone. That would take far to much time and energy and, frankly, there are other things in my life would suffer as a result. These other things are a bit more important in life to me. I am not going to live forever regardless of how intense I train. Also, I do not have the "killer" instinct within me. My instructors did not require that I defeat all non-black belts before receiving my black belt and after my black belt if I lost to a brown belt or a streetfighter (who only wore a black belt that he bought at Kmart) my black belt was not taken away.

I know that this probably does not make me a good martial artist or a karateka but then all I want to do is be the best I can be given life happens. I do admire those who can spend the time and energy in the ultra intense training and there are times that I wish I had that ability too. There are other times that I do not and that I appreciate the balance that my teacher gave me because that balance was right for me personally.

I dont mean this to be disrespectful in any way, its a serious question. If you dont have that killer instinct or are not interested in defeating people, did you ever think perhaps you would be better suited to something other than martial arts? Im not saying people shouldnt do martial arts for arts sake, if thats your deal then i have no problems with that, has long as the person doesnt claim anything different. One of the main reasons that people dont have alot of respect for black belts particularly, and martial artists in general is because of the watered down training methods and the gradual move away from the combat aspects.

[patusai]

[i dont mean this to be disrespectful in any way, its a serious question. If you dont have that killer instinct or are not interested in defeating people, did you ever think perhaps you would be better suited to something other than martial arts? Im not saying people shouldnt do martial arts for arts sake, if thats your deal then i have no problems with that, has long as the person doesnt claim anything different. One of the main reasons that people dont have alot of respect for black belts particularly, and martial artists in general is because of the watered down training methods and the gradual move away from the combat aspects.

Far more people think that they have the "killer" instinct that I am speaking of then actualy do. No, I am not interested in defeatng people. Karate is more than that. I am not a street fighter.

[cross]

I have nothing more to contribute without restating old information, my opinion has been made clear in my previous posts.

[NightOwl]

I see the 'Old masters' and 'Made to train for fighting' brought up again, so I'll throw this in for a second time: According to my understanding, Kata were and are essentially collections of techniques, thus by practicing and making them, you were recording by a series of movements rather than on paper (again, paper wasn't as cheap and easy to come by as today) fighting moves so that they would not be forgotten. Thus kata had a purpose, and people found that foucasing on them helped to hone themselves mentally, but it was made for collection and memorization of moves MEANT TO BE USED OUTSIDE OF JUST THE KATA rather than as a practice in themselves. With modern recording techniques, kata as they were used practically are no longer needed, and thus we are left with the 'art' of 'martial arts', which is fine as long as you realize that practicing moves in kata won't be practical if you are not looking at them in applied situations. I found the last article on this page: http://progressiveshotokankarate.com/Articles.html on finding the application in a kata move to be particularly intresting.

[cross]

Found this interesting article also, covers some of the ideas that have been discussed here.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/07/06/karate-as-performance-art/

[NightOwl]

Found this interesting article also, covers some of the ideas that have been discussed here.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/07/06/karate-as-performance-art/

That's a good site...alot of intresting articles.

[bushido_man96]

Found this interesting article also, covers some of the ideas that have been discussed here.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/07/06/karate-as-performance-art/

That is a good article. I enjoy his honesty about his training.

[cross]

That is a good article. I enjoy his honesty about his training.

Thats what i like about his articles also. Straight to the point. Tells it like it is.

[bushido_man96]

That is a good article. I enjoy his honesty about his training.

Thats what i like about his articles also. Straight to the point. Tells it like it is.

Well, at least he tells it like it is for him. I like how he words his opinions, though. He doesn't beat around the bush.