The Uselessness of Kata

[cross]

First of all when you learn any new art you are doing a certain amount of overiding anyway. More with some arts and less with others for sure. Some of us find it worth the while to do so because of the benefits that await us at the end of the tunnel. And of course, some of us don't because we do not want to commit the extra time, or we want to enhance our "natural" responses, and so on. That is fair enough.

It makes more sense to me to make what we have work. Not try and change thousands of years of human evolution. And im not just talking through my hat, i have trained for a number of years in traditional karate before i came to these conclusions.

What is significant regarding karate training, including the katas, is that the art has existed for centuries and the main reason for that is that it has worked as a fighting system, and if taught and STUDIED correctly will continue to work at the present and in the future.

What proof is there regarding its effectiveness has a fighting system? Since the few masters you mention below, there has not been alot of evidence to suggest that traditional karate is still relevant has a fighting form.

If there was no research to say anything otherwise then maybe that says something about the credibility of Kata. Remembering of course that kata training is just one aspect of karate training, there are other aspects such as kihon, kumite, meditation, and conditioning.

This seemingly simplistic approach to traing leaves alot of gaps that need to be filled in if you want to learn effective self defence.

Another important point to remember is that part of being a master is also includes being a teacher and a RESEARCHER. Many of the great masters have done their own research and have even changed their styles of karate based on their research, but they have not discarded kata training. That says something.

More recent styles have "kata" but they are practiced from a fighting stance with guard up and have direct application to fighting. e.g. Ashihara and Enshin. So the more progressive styles do have something they call kata, but its nothing like the originals.

One mans universal common sense is another man's illogic. Are you saying that Funakoshi, Oyama, Egami and Yamaguchi, who were probably the greatest karate masters of the 20th century. Exponents who devoted their lives to the practise of karate and yes RESEARCHING karate, because all high level karate (and kung fu) training involves research, had no common sense?

What they did made great sense for the time period they were in. How they trained would have reflected the resources they had and the type of attacks present at the time. Even kata would make sense considering a training hall would have been a rare luxury in those days so they needed a way to practice by themselves without equipment.

However these days the techniques have little use considering opponents are bigger, healthier, stronger, and often used weapons.

So i have alot of respect for the masters of old considering they trained to fit the situation they were in and the training reflected their access to resources and the most common attacks they would experience at the time. The people who follow their lead and train for the situations we experience today, using the resources we have available to us will be the masters of our time. Kata is not the way to move forward.

However, as far as karate, and I'll bring in kung fu here, are concerned, there is a legitimate place for katas and forms training in their practise. Hundereds of REAL masters (teachers,researchers,fighters, warriors, scholars),have considered them as fundamental parts of karate/kungfu practice for many centuries and continue to do so.

Who are the real masters of today? Those trying to pass on the tradition of what the old masters did by do exactly what they did?

There are many types of breathing in karate practise and katas are an important tool for the practise of breathing and their relation to combat.

You can practice breathing in kata all you like, but its not going to translate directly to how you will breath and the emotions you will experience in actual combat.

Furthermore, one eventually progresses from the technical proficiency gained through the mastery of katas and their applications to understanding the PRINCIPLES behind them because in real combat one will be using the principles of one's style together with the relatively few techniques that one has found useful and that have become part of one's self.

So, at a high level to understand the kata is to understand the principles behind the particular style of karate that one studies.

The principles may have been applicable at the time of the katas creation, but hold little relevance regarding how people are attacked today.

[Steve_K]

Cross, I think you are greatly underestimating the importance of form and I'm not talking about the "keep your fist chambered at your hip" form but precise and consistent movement. In grappling martial arts like wrestling and jujitsu, technique is absolutely key. When I am wrestling with someone, I have to make sure that I am in perfect position and my movement is precise in order to execute the technique as effectively as possible. If my hips are a little too high, my arms aren't in enough or my feet are too close or far apart, I end up having to use twice as much strength or more to execute the move. Naturally, my movement while free wrestling is a bit less precise than it is when I am drilling a particular move, but it is certainly a heck of a lot better than someone who was shown the move once, did it once, and that's it. If you don't train your blocks well enough, you may not block far enough and/or hard enough. If you don't train your strikes properly, you can easily injure your arm and wrist, and if you don't train your stance and movement properly, you can easily stumble and/or be caught off balance. For someone like me who is 5'6" and 140lbs, proficiency in technique is everything.

Like a doctor in medical school, who gets desensitized and learned in his/her schooling, working on cadavers and doing clinicals, when they are finally faced with a real situation on their own, yes they will probably be nervous and have adrenaline running, they will still be better mentally prepared to think clearly and correctly. Same thing for martial artists when properly trained. Our business is training for violence and aggression. When thinking about and considering these things as often as we do, over time, when faced with the prospect of a real physical confrontation we will be less effected by the rush we will experience. I want to be clear that I'm not saying that we will behave just as we would during training and sparring, but the sensations will be less intense than someone who hasn't trained. I know from my own personal experiences. On several occasions I was faced with a violent situation. It happened just recently; I got a rush when I realized things might escalate, but it was less intense than it was when I was younger and hadn't been training as long. At this point I was so used to people coming at me, and wrestling and fighting with people in training, the only difference was that I didn't know the guy. The person was just some stupid high school kid looking to act tough, but like most people, he was too chicken to try anything himself, and he ended up backing off after we exchanged some words. Nevertheless I was fully prepared for him to come at me, and I had no concerns about being able to handle it, not in a conceited way, but a calm way.

[cross]

Cross, I think you are greatly underestimating the importance of form and I'm not talking about the "keep your fist chambered at your hip" form but precise and consistent movement. In grappling martial arts like wrestling and jujitsu, technique is absolutely key. When I am wrestling with someone, I have to make sure that I am in perfect position and my movement is precise in order to execute the technique as effectively as possible. If my hips are a little too high, my arms aren't in enough or my feet are too close or far apart, I end up having to use twice as much strength or more to execute the move. Naturally, my movement while free wrestling is a bit less precise than it is when I am drilling a particular move, but it is certainly a heck of a lot better than someone who was shown the move once, did it once, and that's it.

Im all for precise and consistent movement. Whats taught in kata needs to be modified significantly to be used against a resisting opponent. How is that consistent?

Im glad you mentioned wresting and jujitsu. They are great examples of realistic training. In wresting and jujitsu a position is a position and a submission is a submission. You dont roll around on the ground by yourself stringing a series of movements together and then rarely train those against a partner. The majority of technique practice is with partners first allowing you to do the technique and then resisting to make sure you can do it under pressure. Thats the complete opposite of kata based systems.

If you don't train your blocks well enough, you may not block far enough and/or hard enough. If you don't train your strikes properly, you can easily injure your arm and wrist, and if you don't train your stance and movement properly, you can easily stumble and/or be caught off balance. For someone like me who is 5'6" and 140lbs, proficiency in technique is everything.

Im not against having precise movements at all or saying you shouldnt work on technique. Im all for it. To say that i underestimate the importance of good technique is quiet presumptuous on your part. I have a very well thought out AND practiced gameplan for self defence situations that will and has worked against the constantly changing nature of a self defence situation. Everything is planned and trained, from the pre fight conversation, to the aftermath. Everything used including the "blocks", strikes, "stance", and movement is all precise and trained to be that way. At the same time its adaptable to the majority of situations and will still hold relevance and practicality.

[Steve_K]

Cross,

I didn't mean to presume you didn't believe in technique, just that the "formal" techniques are more versatile and applicable than you give them credit for.

Your comments on wrestling and jujitsu are dead on. Like I said before, the best way to train would be to simply fight a bunch of different people all the time. Jujitsu can be trained the way it is because a submission isn't instantly damaging like a strike is. That is why for striking arts, different methods had to be developed to train a person's movements, such as punching bags, technique drills, kata and sparring. If I have the choice, I would rather have a partner throwing punches and kicks at me while I just try to defend, and vice versa.

That you have developed a personal method that you feel works perfectly for you is fantastic, seriously. I myself have found some serious gaps in the "classical" training I have received, and I had to, successfully I might add, account for those gaps. Believe me, I don't think katas are perfect or even crucial for training. However, I have personally gotten to a point where I can practice them and increase my functional abilities. I do not practice them due to tradition, sacredness, or out of blind faith, but because I find them realistically beneficial, for the most part.

I believe katas are a supplement, not a miracle drug, meaning it has to work with other factors in order to serve a purpose. I find them physically intense, and very complimentary to my more "realistic" training.

As was said before, they are good for SOLO training, in conjunction to other drills and as an overall physical exercise. A good partner will always be preferred.

[patusai]

karate is only one way to learn to fight. There are others. A good street fighter can defeat a black belt. Street fighting is a martial art. There are many valid points that were offered that suggested good reasons to train not using kata. It does not matter how one trains because the outcome depends on so much. As for great street fighting tactics, face it, if you are in a street fight, regardless of what you know or how you practice, and you are out matched and you see a brick at your feet you are going to use it. How many times has a person, while on the losing end of a street fight, pulls a knife, small club or gun to "even" things up so that they can walk away. Kata may be looked at as useless but then when practing using sparing development techniques is also pretty much useless against hand held weapons brought to a fight.

Train, train, train and train some more and when you find yourself in a situation where you have to use your training...get the heck out of there if you can. If you can't...well...do your best.

[cross]

It does not matter how one trains because the outcome depends on so much.

While it isnt possible to completely prepare for a self defence situation. Some ways of preperation have proven to be better than others. Some replicate the nature of a survival situation better than others. I would say it DOES matter how you train.

As for great street fighting tactics, face it, if you are in a street fight, regardless of what you know or how you practice, and you are out matched and you see a brick at your feet you are going to use it. How many times has a person, while on the losing end of a street fight, pulls a knife, small club or gun to "even" things up so that they can walk away. Kata may be looked at as useless but then when practing using sparing development techniques is also pretty much useless against hand held weapons brought to a fight.

Im not talking about a magic pill when i talk about tactics. The things im talking about are ideas that have worked and provide the best chance of survival against unarmed, and armed attacks. Id say there is no debate that if you face any kind of violence expecially when weapons are involved your chance of getting out uninjured or alive is nothing to write home about. But does that mean your just gunna give up because your chances are low? Or wing it and hope for the best without REALLY training to prepare for such circumstances. Im not talking about sparring based skills either. Im talking about things that work against training partners who attack full speed full force with and without weapons in scenario based drills. They are still drills, but they will prepare a person much better than they majority of training you see being passed off has self defence these days. Alot of people are afraid to add that pressure to their training, or dont want to because they think they will get injured. The reality is, if you cant stop a person fully commited to attacking you in the controlled environment of a class, your already low chances are even lower in a real situation.

Train, train, train and train some more and when you find yourself in a situation where you have to use your training...get the heck out of there if you can. If you can't...well...do your best.

Train doing what? that seems to be alot of peoples answer to "do your best" and i completely agree. However what are people doing to address the reality of an all out attack, rarely will the majority of martial artists train against this, even though for most its the very thing they are training to stop. The do your best, or "wing it" attitude is easy enough to pass off because everyone knows that fights are unpredictable and rarely end well for the parties involved. But does that mean you should neglect to train specifically for the type of situations you can face?

[bushido_man96]

Ok, I had a thought on practicing forms that came to me today, and it stems a lot from some things that Sohan and I have conversed about. It has a lot to do with training in general.

As martial artists, we still do a lot of things, training wise, that don't apply directly to self-defense. Take sledgehammer routines, for instance. I love doing the sledgehammer routines. However, they don't translate directly to fighting. The results will help, however, but not transfer directly.

Forms come into play here, as training; for endurance, technique, etc. Why do forms, though, when you can do other things? The reason is because it is good to switch up your routine from time to time, so you don't stagnate in your results.

Forms can help, however, they, like anything, can be taken in moderation.

[cross]

As martial artists, we still do a lot of things, training wise, that don't apply directly to self-defense. Take sledgehammer routines, for instance. I love doing the sledgehammer routines. However, they don't translate directly to fighting. The results will help, however, but not transfer directly.

I agree with this, dont get me wrong, i do weights, run, skip etc. But when it comes to combat training kata doesnt cut it for me.

Forms come into play here, as training; for endurance, technique, etc. Why do forms, though, when you can do other things? The reason is because it is good to switch up your routine from time to time, so you don't stagnate in your results.

Forms can help, however, they, like anything, can be taken in moderation.

I agree with this also. However, most schools dont treat kata this way, it seems that kata is one of the major focuses, not a training aid, but rather the training.

[bushido_man96]

Forms come into play here, as training; for endurance, technique, etc. Why do forms, though, when you can do other things? The reason is because it is good to switch up your routine from time to time, so you don't stagnate in your results.

Forms can help, however, they, like anything, can be taken in moderation.

I agree with this also. However, most schools dont treat kata this way, it seems that kata is one of the major focuses, not a training aid, but rather the training.

I think you are correct here.

Edited January 1, 2007 by bushido_man96

[cross]

It would be interesting to find some clubs that would take part in some research or experiments.

For example, the club could replace all time spend doing kata related work, with doing a different activity e.g. shadow boxing, bagwork etc and see what kind of improvements and backward steps they notice from the change in training. May be a bit tricky to organise to find conclusive results, but id like to see it none the less.