The Uselessness of Kata

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This also opens up a whole new can of worms....that of 'weapons training' in the 'traditional' martial arts. Aside from kendo and Filipino styles, all I see of 'kobudo' training consists of weapons forms, and no sparring or weapon on weapon contact or self-defense. Perhaps I have just been exposed to the wrong styles, but this is the impression that I get.

From the style i used to train in i had the chance to do some kobudo and watch how seniors do their kobudo training.

The training was fairly static sort of defenses against controlled attacks and it never went futher than that. The seniors did do weapon sparring, both unarmed vs. weapon and weapon vs weapon. The problem was that there was no system to it. It just seemed like "wing it and see what happens" not really always the best way to learn. And the static training did not transfer to the more free sparring situations.

If you are looking to learn weapons for self defence, learn how to deal with sticks, knives and improvised weapons, not farming tools used years ago.

[bushido_man96]

If you are looking to learn weapons for self defence, learn how to deal with sticks, knives and improvised weapons, not farming tools used years ago.

Currently, some friends of mine and I try to get together once a week and have what are essentially medieval combat fighting sessions. They are not practical weapons, I realize, but it is a blast, and I enjoy it so much.

I would love to learn a Kali or Arnis style, but there is nowhere around to learn it.

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Currently, some friends of mine and I try to get together once a week and have what are essentially medieval combat fighting sessions. They are not practical weapons, I realize, but it is a blast, and I enjoy it so much.

I would love to learn a Kali or Arnis style, but there is nowhere around to learn it.

If you are purely concerned with learning weapons for self defence there is alot you can do with only some basic knowledge of sticks.

[bushido_man96]

Currently, some friends of mine and I try to get together once a week and have what are essentially medieval combat fighting sessions. They are not practical weapons, I realize, but it is a blast, and I enjoy it so much.

I would love to learn a Kali or Arnis style, but there is nowhere around to learn it.

If you are purely concerned with learning weapons for self defence there is alot you can do with only some basic knowledge of sticks.

This may be the case, but I don't have many experienced stick fighters around here. However, there are some disarms, grips, and such involved in many medieval styles, that would probably translate well with some work and adjustments.

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This may be the case, but I don't have many experienced stick fighters around here. However, there are some disarms, grips, and such involved in many medieval styles, that would probably translate well with some work and adjustments.

The thing is to not try and get over technical with it. Principle over technique. Start with 1 grip. Learn to hit hard from the 4 main angles. Dont get to caught up in fancy disarms or alot of parrying etc. When defending dont wait. After the first strike close the distance and control the stick arm, and body of the person.

Just some thoughts.

[baronbvp]

Steve K, some good points. NightOwl, your example of archery hits another nail on the head with respect to kata: who cares if you look good while you die. I'd rather be the guy who hits the target well with the arrow, even it I have sloppy form, than the slower one with great form whose opponent hits me first. There are no points for second place.

Cross and Bushido Man, good weapons discussion and another example of dojos training antiquated styles. I have no rice threshers in my home, nor do I expect to be attacked with one. Defending against today's weapons make more sense. I would love to try medieval fighting, though - it does sound like a blast. My favorite movie scene of all time is the broadsword fight between King Arthur and the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

[username8517]

I see where you are coming from. But if we are talkling about moves that work, i assume we are talking about in a self defence situation? If thats the case then i would say one of the majory downfalls of kata based systems, or systems that use kata to offload information to the student is the heavy focus on techniques and the limited focus on tactics.

I will agree with this. However, as I think we both will agree to is that kata is not the end-all-be-all of martial arts. As it's been stated before, all the proper and perfect technique in the world isn't going to do any good if you don't have practice exerting the moves in real application.

Now please bear in mind, I'm not saying kata is useless either. It is a tool that provides many many benefits if one chooses to both utilize and understand them. Can you get by without it and be a well equiped fighter--sure--I'm not arguing that.

But to disregard kata because there are other means of training is not a valid stance for getting rid of it in my opinion. For example, you probably have multiple ways to get to work in the morning--you can drive your car, take a bus, carpool, ride a bike, etc. Each one having their own benefits and drawbacks to those who choose to take them (just like various training methods available to everyone). For the sake of debate, let's say I was pro-bus and you were pro-drive your own car. Would you advocate that buses, bikes, and carpools were useless and outdated because cars are a valid substitute and you can still get to work fine without them?

If all you practice regularly is the 12 moves that work for you, how indepth would you knowledge of the other techniques that are more likely to work for someone else be? Beleive it or not there are some tactics out there that will work for the majority of people. Obviously physical size and strength is a great advantage, but there are certain techniques that are natural for the human body and will work fairly well regardless of these factors.

How well do I know these other techniques I don't practice--certainly not as well as the 12 I do

Okay, all joking aside, I know of them well enough to give instruction on them and look for potential ways to improve them/correct errors. But certainly not well enough where I would utilize them as a spontaneous response in an actual situation. There are some I will play around with from time to time in light sparring just to see how they work.

And yes, obviously there are a few moves that are natural enough to work for everyone across the board with some modification. But those certainly are not the only techniques you practice correct?

[daizyblackbelt]

This also opens up a whole new can of worms....that of 'weapons training' in the 'traditional' martial arts. Aside from kendo and Filipino styles, all I see of 'kobudo' training consists of weapons forms, and no sparring or weapon on weapon contact or self-defense. Perhaps I have just been exposed to the wrong styles, but this is the impression that I get.

most so-called "traditional" styles of japanese kobudo are taught this way. you'll also notice the rigidity and similarity to empty hand forms don't seem to translate very well into effective armed techniques. sure the punch with sai/tonfa in hand works, but the "punching" motion in bo katas for the basic strike? where's the practicality in that? you deny yourself the SIX FOOT reach of your weapon if you remain in the 1/3 1/3 1/3 grip that is taught.

Yamanni Chinen-ryu is a style of kobudo that (so far as i have been told by the experts, who are admittedly biased being being practioners of the art) is virtually unchanged from the times it was acutally used in combat. The katas are much more dynamic and free-flowing than any other you will see. the foot work in every sequence can cover an entire gym, or 2 inches depending on the situation. Emphasis is made on power generation using the core/abs and forward momentum of the user rather than generating power from a static stance. in the case of bo the hands are always in motion, to allow striking with both ends at their maximum range and for different distancing.

The man who is spreading this style (Sensei Toshihiro Oshiro) also has experience in kendo and is attempting to modify the combat rules of kendo to create a bo-fighting system using what is effectively two shinai attached end to end. (i haven't been exposed to this yet...but i'm hoping will be at some point).

Additionally, there seems to be a variability in the nature of the kata taught. the basic pattern remains the same, but occaisional changes suggest that the actual order is really immaterial, which is a very odd take on kata for a man who is also a traditional karateka. it's also been speculated (though no one has asked him) that he changes the katas depending on what he decided people need to work on.

[RealWingChun]

The human body has a natural set of responses on the subconscious level. Why try and override thousands of years of human evolution with something a few "masters" thought was a good idea hundreds of years ago? It makes sense to learn what your bodys natural responses are and enhance them, not try and re-learn how to respond.

First of all when you learn any new art you are doing a certain amount of overiding anyway. More with some arts and less with others for sure. Some of us find it worth the while to do so because of the benefits that await us at the end of the tunnel. And of course, some of us don't because we do not want to commit the extra time, or we want to enhance our "natural" responses, and so on. That is fair enough.

What is significant regarding karate training, including the katas, is that the art has existed for centuries and the main reason for that is that it has worked as a fighting system, and if taught and STUDIED correctly will continue to work at the present and in the future. A fundemental part of the correct study of karate is the study of KATAS as explained/preached/justified by various masters of karate and its various styles/schools.

What if there statement was made because there was no reasearch to suggest anything different or no-one questioned them at the time?

If there was no research to say anything otherwise then maybe that says something about the credibility of Kata. Remembering of course that kata training is just one aspect of karate training, there are other aspects such as kihon, kumite, meditation, and conditioning.

Another important point to remember is that part of being a master is also includes being a teacher and a RESEARCHER. Many of the great masters have done their own research and have even changed their styles of karate based on their research, but they have not discarded kata training. That says something.

Credentials or not, common sense is universal.

One mans universal common sense is another man's illogic. Are you saying that Funakoshi, Oyama, Egami and Yamaguchi, who were probably the greatest karate masters of the 20th century. Exponents who devoted their lives to the practise of karate and yes RESEARCHING karate, because all high level karate (and kung fu) training involves research, had no common sense?

Should we continue to do something until someone with higher credentials overrules the original idea, even if years later there is no real evidence to support doing the said thing?

The above statement describes the situation of the western world today. That is the world of medicine, astronomy,politics,etc.

However, as far as karate, and I'll bring in kung fu here, are concerned, there is a legitimate place for katas and forms training in their practise. Hundereds of REAL masters (teachers,researchers,fighters, warriors, scholars),have considered them as fundamental parts of karate/kungfu practice for many centuries and continue to do so.

Of course, by using the term 'real masters' I am not referring to masters of shopping mall Mc Karate, who possess 20 dans, etc.

I believe that the misunderstandings regarding kata arise mainly because of the unprofound way that kata are taught nowadays by many so called senseis, and of course our "I want everything now" and "I know it all" cultures where what we ourselfes don't see does not exist.

Kata works in many levels that may not be immediatly apparent. There are the more physical levels such as the exercise itself and its keep fit and conditioning properties. Then there are the techniques which have many levels of applications, that is a set of movements may have one application for a beginner and another for the more advanced students. Here we are entering the aspects that are not so visible. And while we are on the subject of things not so apparent lets bring in the all important BREATHING in karate practise. There are many types of breathing in karate practise and katas are an important tool for the practise of breathing and their relation to combat.

We may go further and take as an example the Sanchin Kata - particular to the styles of Goju, Uechi-Ryu styles of karate among a few others -which is an internal conditioning kata which helps develop a strong body resistant to blows and strikes. It is not much to look at, but internally it is a very demanding kata, this is body conditioning, but from the inside. Welcome to the internals of karate training.

Going back to the technical side of katas. No real and credible master of karate will expect one to learn dozens of techniques to use later in real combat. They will however expect one to know of dozens of techniques within their style but be able to use the few that works for them.

Furthermore, one eventually progresses from the technical proficiency gained through the mastery of katas and their applications to understanding the PRINCIPLES behind them because in real combat one will be using the principles of one's style together with the relatively few techniques that one has found useful and that have become part of one's self.

So, at a high level to understand the kata is to understand the principles behind the particular style of karate that one studies.

So all is not what it seems with katas.

[cross]

But to disregard kata because there are other means of training is not a valid stance for getting rid of it in my opinion. For example, you probably have multiple ways to get to work in the morning--you can drive your car, take a bus, carpool, ride a bike, etc. Each one having their own benefits and drawbacks to those who choose to take them (just like various training methods available to everyone). For the sake of debate, let's say I was pro-bus and you were pro-drive your own car. Would you advocate that buses, bikes, and carpools were useless and outdated because cars are a valid substitute and you can still get to work fine without them?

Interesting analogy, however i would think comparing modern training methods to kata would be more like comparing cars, buses, etc to traveling in say a horse drawn cart.

And yes, obviously there are a few moves that are natural enough to work for everyone across the board with some modification. But those certainly are not the only techniques you practice correct?

The techniques i practice are just tools, not the end objective. They fall in place with correct use of tactics. The techniques themselves can work effectively for anyone, in a reasonably short time. If the tactics related to their use are understood and followed. That means no learning the technique and stances and trying to get everything perfect, then once youve got it doing a completely different technique in terms of application.