The Uselessness of Kata

[username8517]

For a couple reasons:

--Let's me look at the same move in different ways

--Different things to workout (in kata not with a partner)

--What works for me may not work for others

--Etc, etc.

Basically the same reasons why kata is a useful tool for people to take advantage of if they choose to.

[cross]

What works for me may not work for others

What works for the people who created the kata may not work for others either. Most of the time people are taught the kata because its part of the system. If i didnt work for them does that mean the teacher will recognise that and say they dont need to do it anymore because it doesnt suit them?

[username8517]

What works for the people who created the kata may not work for others either. Most of the time people are taught the kata because its part of the system.

That is one of the many reasons kata is taught. But since there are other benefits to it, saying people are taught kata just because it's part of a system is a generalization that I find completely off.

If i didnt work for them does that mean the teacher will recognise that and say they dont need to do it anymore because it doesnt suit them?

I certainly hope not. If I, as male who is approximately 6'3 and 230 lbs, completely disregard all moves and techniques that I don't find useful, and focus only on those 12 twelve techniques I do practice regularly, what would I teach someone who is a female, stands 5'2 and weighs 110 lbs? Because certainly what works for me may not work for someone of that stature. Or what about 8-9-10 year old kids that come into the dojo?

So obviously I would have to retain knowledge of other moves and techniques that might be more suitable for others. So basically I'm going to need to have a record of moves to show each student under me, regardless of what works for them or not, let them pick out what works for them, and then pass along all that knowledge to those they might teach down the road--sounds a lot like kata to me

[cross]

I certainly hope not. If I, as male who is approximately 6'3 and 230 lbs, completely disregard all moves and techniques that I don't find useful, and focus only on those 12 twelve techniques I do practice regularly, what would I teach someone who is a female, stands 5'2 and weighs 110 lbs? Because certainly what works for me may not work for someone of that stature. Or what about 8-9-10 year old kids that come into the dojo?

So obviously I would have to retain knowledge of other moves and techniques that might be more suitable for others. So basically I'm going to need to have a record of moves to show each student under me, regardless of what works for them or not, let them pick out what works for them, and then pass along all that knowledge to those they might teach down the road--sounds a lot like kata to me

I see where you are coming from. But if we are talkling about moves that work, i assume we are talking about in a self defence situation? If thats the case then i would say one of the majory downfalls of kata based systems, or systems that use kata to offload information to the student is the heavy focus on techniques and the limited focus on tactics.

If all you practice regularly is the 12 moves that work for you, how indepth would you knowledge of the other techniques that are more likely to work for someone else be? Beleive it or not there are some tactics out there that will work for the majority of people. Obviously physical size and strength is a great advantage, but there are certain techniques that are natural for the human body and will work fairly well regardless of these factors.

[baronbvp]

I still believe there are better uses of a person's time than training kata, unless you are dedicated to a system and consistently train over a period of many years. Martial arts techniques and kata were developed after extensive years of studying human anatomy, motion, and strengths and weaknesses. Many traditional martial artists from the past devoted their entire lives to the study of their art. Today, most people have only limited time. We seek the greatest efficient and effective training in the precious time we can devote. I agree with Cross that kata are not the best use of valuable dojo training time for most people.

To use the previous example, the best techniques for a large, strong man differ somewhat from those best suited to a small, petite woman. Without stating the obvious too much, effective technique comes from a study of the basics until a strong foundation is developed. Soon after, tailoring training to a person's unique situation is warranted. The small-statured woman may find that fighting up and inside, fast and tight, works best for her. The angry bee attacks the big bear.

In my case, I am tall but not super tall, long limbs, slender at my weight of 175. I have no bulk. I am not that limber and can't raise my hips high, so TKD is out for me. I suck at side kicks but can do a good front kick. I do not have the stocky, low center-of-gravity build of a judoka. I am aggressive and very fast but my punches are not as strong as those of some. I am agile for 45 and active duty military. So, I have tailored my fighting style for what I can do well and what I cannot, given my occupation. It is a hybrid - a word I like better than the equally valid "hodge-podge."

The Gracies developed BJJ for their own statures - smaller men who are built slender. They studied what worked and what didn't and practiced against other fighters repeatedly. No kata. Concrete UFC wins by Royce resulted in the MMA history that followed.

My opinion is that training by actually practicing fighting in the style that works for you, instead of doing some kata moves that may or may not, is a better use of one's limited dojo time.

[Steve_K]

Okay... I didn't say anything about motor skills, and anyway, most all the movements in the katas are broad and in general not consequence to fine motor functions.

Perhaps the movements are not. The ability to convert the movements (which have very limited direct application) to techniques that will actually work does take quiet a bit of thought.

Looking at another post on the forum regarding how many kata people know, it turns out the majority of people learn upwards of 15 kata. If we are conservative and say each kata has 10 techniques (most probably more). Thats 150 techniques to remember. Some will overlap, but do the overlapping ones all have the same application, or is each 1 different? The point im trying to make is that learning alot of techniques is probably the worst thing you could do if you want to defend yourself. Having alot to choose from causes indecision which is something you cant afford to do. And all that assumes the person has a working application to all the techniques.

I have to disagree with you there. I don't believe that katas alone offer extensive benefits in relation to actual combative situations. As for the multitude of techniques you pointed out, aside from the movements that are open for interpretation such as jumping "x" blocks and pole blocks, you basically have your front, side, and roundhouse kicks, punches and knife hand strikes and the variations of the upper, middle and lower blocks. The variations of the blocks include the closed fist, knife hand, and palm variations, each of which represents the hard, intermediate and soft forms of blocking, and all of which have their very appropriate place in reality.

In my experience, I have never been confused and was never slowed down by trying to decide which technique to use. You train each movement, not just in kata but in general, so that your instincts decide which is appropriate, which is why each person has their own "favorite" techniques. I have a knack for sticking people under the arm with my side kick, I never had to think about it, I just did it. Because of my training, my instincts know when I need to throw a punch, round, front or side kick. That is the entire point of training.

When you speak of training your instincts, I both agree and disagree with you. Most people's natural instinct when someone jumps at them is to flinch, close their eyes, and bring their hands up over their face. Someone with training will be able to quickly identify the dangers (if any) that the person who is jumping at them pose, such as their hands or feet, and will block or move or not, accordingly. For a while I was personally trying to develop a training method to practice the movements I use when I am actually fighting. The problem I found with that is the movements a person does when actually fighting are what I call, sloppy versions of the "formal" movements that are taught in class. To try to train those kinds of instinctive movements will, in my belief, result in inconsistent and generally unreliable training. When you think about it, many of our human instincts are less efficient and even damaging when compared to the techniques trained in fighting arts. For example, when you fall, you are supposed to absorb as much of the landing over the largest surface of your body as possible, however, the natural instinct a person has when they fall, is to put their hands out, which can actually result in broken writs, radius or ulna. Another example is, when people fight, a lot of the time their natural tenedency is to swing wide and furiously which is very bad if your opponent knows how to block and move withing the length of the attacker's arms. The broad movements that are taught by an instructor and are present in kata, can and will instinctively be modified to a person's natural, physical preference in a reality setting but at the same time, be much more effective and efficient than that person's natural instinct alone.

[cross]

I have to disagree with you there. I don't believe that katas alone offer extensive benefits in relation to actual combative situations. As for the multitude of techniques you pointed out, aside from the movements that are open for interpretation such as jumping "x" blocks and pole blocks, you basically have your front, side, and roundhouse kicks, punches and knife hand strikes and the variations of the upper, middle and lower blocks. The variations of the blocks include the closed fist, knife hand, and palm variations, each of which represents the hard, intermediate and soft forms of blocking, and all of which have their very appropriate place in reality.

Where do you see karate blocks place in reality? Dont these blocks need to be modified to become a throw or something that looks nothing like the original technique? I dont see how the blocked applied has is in kata can do anything useful in terms of effective strike defence.

In my experience, I have never been confused and was never slowed down by trying to decide which technique to use. You train each movement, not just in kata but in general, so that your instincts decide which is appropriate, which is why each person has their own "favorite" techniques. I have a knack for sticking people under the arm with my side kick, I never had to think about it, I just did it. Because of my training, my instincts know when I need to throw a punch, round, front or side kick. That is the entire point of training.

Experiences vary. If your talking in terms of sparring, your mind is already in a prepared state so you know that your going to have to do those techniques. The fear of getting seriously hurt if you make a mistake is not present either.

When you speak of training your instincts, I both agree and disagree with you. Most people's natural instinct when someone jumps at them is to flinch, close their eyes, and bring their hands up over their face. Someone with training will be able to quickly identify the dangers (if any) that the person who is jumping at them pose, such as their hands or feet, and will block or move or not, accordingly.

I think you overestimate a person with training's ability to react to surprise situations with specialised techniques. And the flinch reflex is a near perfect protection for the human body, if you train to use it to your advantage, not has is. An example:

When i was younger i had 5 years karate training under my belt and found it fairly easy to defend against a large number of attacking in the dojo situation(the prepared mindset again). However, a friend of mine often enjoyed slapping people(including me) in the face when he was drunk, or annoyed at them. The first time he did it to me i didnt see him coming (from the side), he hit me clean, and hard, on the face with a fairly telegraphed slap. Next time i saw him coming up to me after i said something silly to him and went to slap but i flinched and his slap hit me in the arm. No harm done. After alot of warning from me he still thought it was a good idea to slap me on another occasion. Needless to say he learned why it was a bad idea to slap me and hasnt done it since.

The point im trying to make is that friends can be cruel.. Not really, the prepared mindset you have during training makes it easy for you to perform lots of techniques, in a self defence situation you dont have the luxury of being prepared, so training at utilising what youve already got (the flinch reflex, the automatic urge to grab etc) will save you more times than anything else.

For a while I was personally trying to develop a training method to practice the movements I use when I am actually fighting. The problem I found with that is the movements a person does when actually fighting are what I call, sloppy versions of the "formal" movements that are taught in class.

Ofcourse, fights by nature are sloppy, dangerous, and rarely conform to the ideals seen of movies or sparring sessions in class.

To try to train those kinds of instinctive movements will, in my belief, result in inconsistent and generally unreliable training. When you think about it, many of our human instincts are less efficient and even damaging when compared to the techniques trained in fighting arts. For example, when you fall, you are supposed to absorb as much of the landing over the largest surface of your body as possible, however, the natural instinct a person has when they fall, is to put their hands out, which can actually result in broken writs, radius or ulna.

Im not suggesting you should train your insticts has is. Im saying you should recognise what your natural reactions are, and without moving to far away from them, make slight changes to help these benifit you.

Another example is, when people fight, a lot of the time their natural tenedency is to swing wide and furiously which is very bad if your opponent knows how to block and move withing the length of the attacker's arms.

training in tightening the punches up and throwing them from a correct defensive position is needed. Training karate style punches doesnt do this.

The broad movements that are taught by an instructor and are present in kata, can and will instinctively be modified to a person's natural, physical preference in a reality setting but at the same time, be much more effective and efficient than that person's natural instinct alone.

Perhaps, but the majority of the techniques i see in kata have limited effectivness, and the large number of techniques involved with little mention of tactics and correct usage cause confusion when it comes to actually protecting yourself.

[bushido_man96]

The problem I found with that is the movements a person does when actually fighting are what I call, sloppy versions of the "formal" movements that are taught in class. To try to train those kinds of instinctive movements will, in my belief, result in inconsistent and generally unreliable training.

This is a good point, and I would have to agree with it for the most part.

Perhaps, but the majority of the techniques i see in kata have limited effectivness, and the large number of techniques involved with little mention of tactics and correct usage cause confusion when it comes to actually protecting yourself.

This is a good point as well. However, many of the techniques in forms can be used, such as closed handed and open handed blocks, in an actual confrontation. I agree that they do require modification, but the way they are done in forms are good for training body mechanics and developing some functional strength and control.

Both of these points have arguements for and against them.

I don't believe that katas alone offer extensive benefits in relation to actual combative situations.

This is the major point, it seems. Katas alone don't offer extensive benefits, but they can help. What many opponents of katas/forms tend to dislike is that the applications are not made readily available and transferable, and that is a significant downfall.

[NightOwl]

I think a good illustration of the kata debate is archery vs kyudo archery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_archery

Kyudo is very controlled and has a strong emphasis on stance and setting up the shot rather than accuracy (targets are usually set at a fairly close range for practice). Can you become proficient with a bow by training hard in kyudo? Perhaps, and perhaps you will improve your concentration and mucsle strength. But Kyudo is essentially a ritualized version of archery to keep it from dying out, and you can easily become more proficient at a faster pace AND with much more realistic application with traditional archery than with bow and arrow 'kata'.

[bushido_man96]

Kyudo is very controlled and has a strong emphasis on stance and setting up the shot rather than accuracy (targets are usually set at a fairly close range for practice). Can you become proficient with a bow by training hard in kyudo? Perhaps, and perhaps you will improve your concentration and mucsle strength. But Kyudo is essentially a ritualized version of archery to keep it from dying out, and you can easily become more proficient at a faster pace AND with much more realistic application with traditional archery than with bow and arrow 'kata'.

This is a good perspective to look at it from. However, it is obvious that you can gain things from training in both. However, you don't need both to be good at it.

This also opens up a whole new can of worms....that of 'weapons training' in the 'traditional' martial arts. Aside from kendo and Filipino styles, all I see of 'kobudo' training consists of weapons forms, and no sparring or weapon on weapon contact or self-defense. Perhaps I have just been exposed to the wrong styles, but this is the impression that I get.