The Uselessness of Kata

[baronbvp]

This is a great subject that I feel strongly both ways about. Without reading all 35 pages of the thread, it looks like the standard two views with the moderate middle advocating "to each his own."

To me, it comes down to daily practicality for a person. Back in the day when the masters had a year and half to spend in the mountains alone, doing kata may have made sense. Many of the best posts on this entire forum are from very experienced martial artists who have formed their positive views of kata after years of practice and contemplating the kata. Many of us, however, have limited time and aren't able (or willing) to devote that kind of time to training.

Over my life I have practiced various martial arts and combat arts. Most recently I was in Shorin Ryu and became frustrated with the "excessive" time we spent on kata. I am 45; I don't have years to hone my kata. I want to learn how to actually fight better, and get a workout in, and have some physical contact with an opponent on offense and defense. I have now switched to KB and BJJ, because they interest me and I have a busy life. When I go to my dojo, I want to practice fighting. I want to learn and practice effective forms with a partner - proven, actual techniques against a live partner trying equally hard to neutralize me. I have no desire to practice a kata, for example, that dismounted horse warriors from another era used to move aside another's body armor in order to strike a lethal blow.

And when I get home, I have other stuff to do. Would I like to have time to practice some of the kata I already know? Sure, and I will probably do so every so often. But I also lift weights, and work, and run my family. So spending time on kata in class is not worth my limited time and money.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone, because I have the deepest respect for the traditions and current state of martial arts. It's just reality of life in the 21st century America. Kata are not as good a use of my time to learn to fight as fighting is.

[bushido_man96]

To start off, I would like to clarify that I enjoy practicing forms. They are fun for me, and I feel that they are beneficial as far as physical skill development goes. I also know that there are applications for many forms systems out there as well.

You don't NEED to perform the katas with partners, although that would certainly be the preferred method. I was simply pointing out that it wasn't a waste of time.

I always do my forms solo, but I would love to be able to do some partner bunkai work from the forms. I will also mention that I do enjoy doing forms a lot, and I really like to do them in competition. I like to use forms to work on technique, combinations, and pushing myself. These aspects all have merit, in my opinion. However, they do not fulfill my needs as far as self-defense training goes.

You can't practice them as if you were dancing, just doing the moves. You really have to focus and visualize as if you were really being attacked. The benefits depend entirely on your mind state when you practice.

I agree with this statement as well. When I do forms in class and at tournaments, I focus in, and let it all fly out. I burn myself out after each form.

It did seem to work for Oyama, and many other very tough martial artists that I know personally, as a PART of their training.

This is true. However, there are a lot of fighters out there that are great, and never did forms training. Boxers and Thai boxers are examples. BJJ is another.

In conlcusion, I feel that forms practice makes you good at forms. Sparring practice makes you good at sparring. Self-defense training makes you good at self-defense. It all depends on what you want to get out of your training.

[cross]

I feel that forms practice makes you good at forms. Sparring practice makes you good at sparring. Self-defense training makes you good at self-defense. It all depends on what you want to get out of your training.

Couldnt have said it better.

[Steve_K]

Nicely put Bushido_Man.

Like you said, many very good fighters and martial artists don't practice kata because they don't have to, and nobody has to.

I practice them for the same reason you do. To push myself and get a good work out. Since they are so short, they're good for practicing to put yourself in the violent and aggressive mindset you need to be in while fighting for real, as opposed to trying to hold that mindset for the duration of your entire workout.

I don't think of the movements as an actual continuous fight, because the movements don't emulate the movement of a real fight. I think of each combination of 2-5 movements as that single critical moment that occurs in a fight where you have to commit your movement and strike hard and fast to end the fight in an instant.

Katas are just in the list of all the things I do to train. I lift weights, run, drill hands, feet and movement, work on a heavy bag, wrestle (when I have a partner) and do katas.

Working on a heavy bag, running or lifting alone won't make you a good fighter; and the same goes for kata.

[cross]

Since they are so short, they're good for practicing to put yourself in the violent and aggressive mindset you need to be in while fighting for real, as opposed to trying to hold that mindset for the duration of your entire workout.

The mindset you acheive during kata would be worlds apart from how your body would react during a violent situation. Fine motor skill is the first thing that flies out the window.

[bushido_man96]

Most recently I was in Shorin Ryu and became frustrated with the "excessive" time we spent on kata.

This is a problem that I have at my school. Our school is very curriculum oriented; we spend time on basics, then forms, then one-steps---all things required to do for testing purposes---and then we do some sparring with the last 10 minutes of class, if there is time. Now, this process has given me great technique over the years, and even for an overweight guy, I can do a pretty darn good form. However, we rarely spend time on self-defense techniques, which is what I would like to do a lot more of. That, and competitive style sparring.

There comes a point in time where you can back off of the basics a little bit. I have been doing TKD for 13 years now, and I am pretty sure that some of my basic techniques are not going to suffer if we were to spend more time on self-defense drills, and scenario training.

When I go to my dojo, I want to practice fighting. I want to learn and practice effective forms with a partner - proven, actual techniques against a live partner trying equally hard to neutralize me.

This kind of the same sentiment that I feel as well. These are the things that will benefit a martial artist the most when it comes down to self-defense, I believe.

[Havoc88]

Baronbvp, just a question. You said you want to learn how to fight and that that is the reason you train in the martial arts. But being 45, I would think you would rarely, if ever, get into a situation where you need to defend yourself on life or death. Maby it's just being ignorant and naive, but I feel that the time you really need to be able to defend yourself is from 12-30 max. That seems to me the time people have something to prove. After that, most have found their place in society and pretty much lay low.

I would think, that being 45, you could spend a lot of your training time on the art part instead of the fighting part. Practice good technique.

Maby you just enjoy training self defence more than you enjoy perfecting technique. In that case, I was completely wrong.

By no intentions was this ment to bash you or anything, just something I was wondering.

Tom

[Havoc88]

Baronbvp, I just read the topic about practicing older kata, and read you were in the millitary. I guess there is my reason huh

Nevermind my post above then

Tom

[baronbvp]

Havoc88, it's still a good question. Your post is timely; I am already reconsidering whether I even want to start KB and BJJ. At this point in my life, getting the crap beaten out of me during training may be educational, but the potential for injury is high. Mostly, I just miss the dojo environment and fighting itself. Until Shorin Ryu, almost all of my training has been in classes or one on one with actual practicing of various forms.

I enjoyed practicing kata for what it is. But I like to fight because I learn more about fighting while doing it - like football players learning more during the intensity of a game. You're right, I don't expect to have to prove myself to some 25 year old on the street. But I also want to be ready in case the unforseen ever arises. I just don't want to get injured practicing...

[baronbvp]

I suppose I could be answering my own question. I've never hurt myself doing kata.