The Uselessness of Kata

[cross]

Kata helps to develop balance and technique. There is nothing that can be done, be it kata, kumite or any other training that can address every possible technique thrown at you.

Kata does help develop balance, so does alot of other drills. Technique? you do techniques while performing kata, although the particular techniques relevance to self defence is questionable considering they are not directly applicable.

As for the importance of kata, it would depend on how important one would think basics are...AND please understand...Kata is not the only way to develop basics That's my way of looking at it.

What kind of basics? Karate basics? certainly, if your goal is to be good at doing karate then kata would be excillent, but in terms of self defence, or sparring, kata basics are worlds apart from the basics associated with those.

[Steve_K]

I'm sure someone already said this but I figured I'd just refresh the idea.

Masutatsu Oyama, while he was training in the mountains for something like a year and a half, he would perform kata a minimum of one hundred times a day, among other forms of training.

He was easily one of the baddest dudes on the planet and beat great fighters of many different styles including wrestlers and grapplers. He did have a black belt in judo, but I'm not sure if he even had to use that skill to defeat them.

The point is, if he believed in kata, then there must be some value there.

[bushido_man96]

I'm sure someone already said this but I figured I'd just refresh the idea.

Masutatsu Oyama, while he was training in the mountains for something like a year and a half, he would perform kata a minimum of one hundred times a day, among other forms of training.

He was easily one of the baddest dudes on the planet and beat great fighters of many different styles including wrestlers and grapplers. He did have a black belt in judo, but I'm not sure if he even had to use that skill to defeat them.

The point is, if he believed in kata, then there must be some value there.

This is what I consider to be one of the major problems behind "traditional" martial arts. One person does something like what Oyama did, and now there are people who will blindly follow along with what he did, with no questions asked. You can see the same with Funkoshi, and many other masters as well. Why did he do katas hundreds of times a day? My guess is becuase he was by himself, and it was a good solo exercise. How do you practice the bunkai by yourself, though? He also did loads of push-ups, and kicked trees hundreds of times a day as well, while he was up there.

My point is this: just because it worked for one person, doesn't mean it will work for another.

[cross]

This is what I consider to be one of the major problems behind "traditional" martial arts. One person does something like what Oyama did, and now there are people who will blindly follow along with what he did, with no questions asked. You can see the same with Funkoshi, and many other masters as well. Why did he do katas hundreds of times a day? My guess is becuase he was by himself, and it was a good solo exercise. How do you practice the bunkai by yourself, though? He also did loads of push-ups, and kicked trees hundreds of times a day as well, while he was up there.

My point is this: just because it worked for one person, doesn't mean it will work for another.

I agree. If someone asks you a question regarding why you do something in your style and the answer is along the lines of "because thats how the old masters did it" or "because my instructor told me to do it that way" you are not really doing yourself or anyone else any favours by carrying on the tradition. Unless ofcourse you can answer why doing the thing in question is effective for you NOW. And that its superior to other methods that acheive a similar goal.

[Steve_K]

Who said anyone was doing it blindly?

I wasn't preaching amazing benefits of kata. I am well aware of all the other kinds of training Oyama did; I eluded to them above. It is definately not the beat all, end all way to train.

You don't NEED to perform the katas with partners, although that would certainly be the preferred method. I was simply pointing out that it wasn't a waste of time.

You can't practice them as if you were dancing, just doing the moves. You really have to focus and visualize as if you were really being attacked. The benefits depend entirely on your mind state when you practice.

Aside from the physical resistance, how is kata any less beneficial than striking a heavy bag or focus mits or drilling a single technique over and over?

The best way to train would be to have a bunch of guys and just fight them over and over, but a lot of times you have to practice alone.

It's not like you WILL be a great fighter if you practice kata all the time, and it's not like you can't be a great fighter if you don't. I'm just saying that if you want to practice it, don't feel like you're doing it just because your teacher tells you to and that you're wasting your time. If you don't want to do it, then don't. If something else seems to work better for you when you're by yourself then do it.

It did seem to work for Oyama, and many other very tough martial artists that I know personally, as a PART of their training.

I'm just tired of hearing people say either "You shouldn't do it, because it's worthless" or "You have to do it, because it's priceless". It just is there, and if you do it correctly, it's good for you. It's like orange juice.

[patusai]

I found this on the net somewhere a while back

"The Way of the warrior does not include other Ways, such as Confucianism, Buddhism, certain traditions, artistic accomplishments and/or dancing. But even though these are not part of the Way, if you know the Way broadly you will see it in everything. Men must polish their

particular Way."

-- Miyamoto Musashi - 1584? - 1645

My point is (and this is my thought) there are many ways and as many have said thus far you choose your own path. As for effectiveness, that too depends on you. The greatest fighter can practice kata or he/she can practice in other ways but he/she is not great because of what he practices but rather his/her dedication.

[RealWingChun]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, life is too short, but here is my 2 cents worth. Katas are the soul of karate, I really believe that.

To become a complete karate-ka, one must practise katas diligently. One must UNDERSTAND the katas that one practises and their real life APPLICATIONS. One must practise in such a way as if his life depended on it. One must bring kata practise to a meditative state where one will absorb the kata at a subconscious level. Do all the above and then you will understand why katas are such an important part of karate.

One of the most important things to remember is that the old masters, be they Oyama, Funakoshi, Egami, Yamaguchi or whoever else, were also TEACHERS. If they stressed the importance of katas, then there is a good reason for their statement.

If someone is going to overule them, on a professional level, then they should produce matching credentials.

[cross]

Who said anyone was doing it blindly?

Your comment "The point is, if he believed in kata, then there must be some value there." That was the only reason you provided to this point. I look forward to hearing other reasons why you find kata benificial.

I wasn't preaching amazing benefits of kata. I am well aware of all the other kinds of training Oyama did; I eluded to them above. It is definately not the beat all, end all way to train.

Certainly, but when your justification for doing kata is "because someone else did it", i wonder, if we are doing kata because of oyama, what else should we do that he did many years ago. Punch stones to condition our knuckles, go into the mountains to train and live. 2006 is a very different time to when oyama was training.

You can't practice them as if you were dancing, just doing the moves. You really have to focus and visualize as if you were really being attacked. The benefits depend entirely on your mind state when you practice.

You can visualise being attacked while performing kata, or you can actually replicate getting attacked with training partners and defend against it. All the visualisation in the world isnt going to prepare you for the adrenaline and loss of fine motor skill, associated with being attacked.

Aside from the physical resistance, how is kata any less beneficial than striking a heavy bag or focus mits or drilling a single technique over and over?

Firstly, impact. Hitting a bag is exactly that... hitting. Its a whole different ball game to performing kata. Also, in general the techniques found in kata have limited applications to the realities of violence in the 21st century. Ive seen it time and time again, an application being taught that looks a little bit like the original technique(if you have an amazing imagination) that turns out to be an elaborate throwing and strike combination, all starting from an "opponent" throwing a single karate style punch and holding it out so you can control his arm. Its just not realistic.

The best way to train would be to have a bunch of guys and just fight them over and over, but a lot of times you have to practice alone.

Im not denying this, however your solo training time could be spent doing more practical things than kata.

I'm just saying that if you want to practice it, don't feel like you're doing it just because your teacher tells you to and that you're wasting your time.

The majority of the time, that is the only reason kata is taught in the first place though. Because thats what your instructor was taught, or it maintains the spirit of budo etc. Not many instructors give a good reason has to why kata would apply to someone who wants to learn how to defend themself NOW.

Edited December 28, 2006 by cross

[cross]

As for effectiveness, that too depends on you. The greatest fighter can practice kata or he/she can practice in other ways but he/she is not great because of what he practices but rather his/her dedication.

Today, the majority of great fighters do not practice kata, there are exceptions, but thats all they are, exceptions.

[cross]

To become a complete karate-ka, one must practise katas diligently. One must UNDERSTAND the katas that one practises and their real life APPLICATIONS. One must practise in such a way as if his life depended on it. One must bring kata practise to a meditative state where one will absorb the kata at a subconscious level. Do all the above and then you will understand why katas are such an important part of karate.

The human body has a natural set of responses on the subconscious level. Why try and override thousands of years of human evolution with something a few "masters" thought was a good idea hundreds of years ago? It makes sense to learn what your bodys natural responses are and enhance them, not try and re-learn how to respond.

One of the most important things to remember is that the old masters, be they Oyama, Funakoshi, Egami, Yamaguchi or whoever else, were also TEACHERS. If they stressed the importance of katas, then there is a good reason for their statement.

What if there statement was made because there was no reasearch to suggest anything different or no-one questioned them at the time?

If someone is going to overule them, on a professional level, then they should produce matching credentials.

Credentials or not, common sense is universal. Should we continue to do something until someone with higher credentials overrules the original idea, even if years later there is no real evidence to support doing the said thing?