The Uselessness of Kata

[bushido_man96]

The answer: nowhere else to train. Better to have some training, as opposed to no training. I enjoy what I do, I just realize what it lacks as well.

Ain't that the truth i spent my childhood in plainville and stockton so i know you don't have a whole lot of choice in that area.

You grew up in Kansas? That's kind of cool. I was born in Norton, went to preschool, kindergarten, and 1st grade in Plainville, and then moved to Colby, where I graduated high school. Then came to Hays to go to college.

[cross]

Better to have some training, as opposed to no training.

Part of me agrees with this, and i think its great that you enjoy the training.

However, i would say that there are some cases where some training wont necessarily be better than none. If we are talking from strickly a self defence perspective, and the training teaches you bad habits, gives you are false sense of confidence, teaches techniques that are ineffective, outdated, or require alot of fine motor skill to work, trains with a passive partner who freezes and falls to peices after you do one technique and calls that self defence. Then that training obviously wont help you.

The thing with having no training at all is that you are unsure of what you can do, however, you are not blinded by what you think combat should be like, or what technique you think you should use, or over confidence you might have gotten from second rate training.

If the training enhances your natural reactions and contributes to making the way you naturally move stronger, than this is clearly an advantage. If however you are being taught to go against your most natural reactions and re-learn how to move, then is that training really better than none?

[bushido_man96]

The training I have received has not built any bad habits, that I can pick out. When we spar, we block, counter, and use footwork for offense and defense. It has helped with my timing and combination building. I have also figured out what some of my strengths and weaknesses are.

I have recently found a partner that I can do some more self-defense related activities with, and I am enjoying getting back into it. If there was a judo club or a BJJ school around here, I would be into it in a heartbeat.

[username8697]

I used to feel the same way about kata now that I am older I feel differently because well I have proven wrong in my perception of kata.

Now you might wonder if I do not like kata why do shito-ryu karate as this style probably has more katas that any other well among other things when I started at 14 I did not know any better and did not care. However no being 35 and not interested in the same things in karate I finally started to perceive the interest in kata.

1) Concentration: No other part of karate (kion,kumite,kata) requires as much concentration to do correctly.

2) Humility: It teaches us to do things we like less.

To often I see people have the perception that MA is some sort of miracle pill that you take and boom overnight you can anihilate anyone . They overlook that it takes a lot of effort, sweat and unpleasant but necessary moments for some it might be kata others kion etc.. But they are part of a whole.

3) Self-defense: This is where I was proven wrong I do workshop with Sensei Nakahashi every year he is shihan for Shito ryu in Europe and is one of the foremost experts in kata. He tought us efficient bunkai that I have used repeatedly in kumite much to the surprise of my opponents. To quote one “young” competitor “I hate doing kumite with you always do things I do not expect”

In conclusion I would say that kata is like the wax on wax off thing in the karate kid you don’t see the point look again it’s just a little harder to spot but it is there.

[cross]

In conclusion I would say that kata is like the wax on wax off thing in the karate kid you don’t see the point look again it’s just a little harder to spot but it is there.

It taught him how to perform inside and outside block, probably some humility, and the value of hard work?

If we take that example, but talk about defensive techniques in general:

The karate kid way:

1. Perform the techniques with a sponge in your hand, leaning over, no interaction with another person.

2. Learn some humility and work ethic from cleaning the car.

3. Eventually perform the technique with mr miyagi throwing a punch and holding it out in the air while you block.

The other way:

1. Learn the mechanics of proper defence, including a good guard, footwork, movement. Drill those using various means that directly relate to the actual technique.

2. Practice the technique against a partner throwing proper punches at you. Starting slow and gradually building speed. Realising you cant stop the punches like you thought you could is quiet a humbiling experience. Getting better at it requires the hard work.

3. Finish by using the techniques while your partner is throwing random singular, and combination punches.

If you are trying to learn a technique and those are your 2 options, i know which one i would choose.

[username8697]

It taught him how to perform inside and outside block, probably some humility, and the value of hard work?

If we take that example, but talk about defensive techniques in general:

The karate kid way:

1. Perform the techniques with a sponge in your hand, leaning over, no interaction with another person.

2. Learn some humility and work ethic from cleaning the car.

3. Eventually perform the technique with mr miyagi throwing a punch and holding it out in the air while you block.

The other way:

1. Learn the mechanics of proper defence, including a good guard, footwork, movement. Drill those using various means that directly relate to the actual technique.

2. Practice the technique against a partner throwing proper punches at you. Starting slow and gradually building speed. Realising you cant stop the punches like you thought you could is quiet a humbiling experience. Getting better at it requires the hard work.

3. Finish by using the techniques while your partner is throwing random singular, and combination punches.

If you are trying to learn a technique and those are your 2 options, i know which one i would choose.

I understand your point however i was making an analogy with a situation.

What I mean is that in order to see anything useful in kata you need to dig deeper into bunkai and be patient.

Unless your goal is to have a really shiny car I would of course not advise waxing on and off…

[Sohan]

It taught him how to perform inside and outside block, probably some humility, and the value of hard work?

If we take that example, but talk about defensive techniques in general:

The karate kid way:

1. Perform the techniques with a sponge in your hand, leaning over, no interaction with another person.

2. Learn some humility and work ethic from cleaning the car.

3. Eventually perform the technique with mr miyagi throwing a punch and holding it out in the air while you block.

The other way:

1. Learn the mechanics of proper defence, including a good guard, footwork, movement. Drill those using various means that directly relate to the actual technique.

2. Practice the technique against a partner throwing proper punches at you. Starting slow and gradually building speed. Realising you cant stop the punches like you thought you could is quiet a humbiling experience. Getting better at it requires the hard work.

3. Finish by using the techniques while your partner is throwing random singular, and combination punches.

If you are trying to learn a technique and those are your 2 options, i know which one i would choose.

I understand your point however i was making an analogy with a situation.

What I mean is that in order to see anything useful in kata you need to dig deeper into bunkai and be patient.

Unless your goal is to have a really shiny car I would of course not advise waxing on and off…

I think the point is, if both ways are going to get you the same result, why would you ever choose the first option? Why spend years to become a decent fighter when you can achieve this in 12 months? Certainly, the second option is likely the most efficient way to become a proficient fighter. If my son was being bullied at school, as much as I love karate I would instead have enrolled him in Muay Thai and/or BJJ first.

However, the answer is different for everyone. The answer for me is that I do kata for reasons other than just fighting. I learn the bunkai and seek to understand as completely as I can the applications within each form. However, I also do kata because it makes me more agile and gives me better body awareness and power creation, as well as I find kata teaches me to relax.

Besides, why does it have to be one or the other? I Thai box, grapple, and perform Karate, and benefit from all of them. I am a better Thai boxer because of Karate, a better grappler because of Thai Boxing, and a better Karate-ka because of grappling, etc. And now that I've been studying Hung Gar Kung Fu for the past year and learned some of its forms, including the 2-man set, I now have added new dimensions to my fighting ability.

It's all good, but this works for me. It may not work for someone else.

With respect,

Sohan

[cross]

You make some very good points Sohan, i will comment on one:

Besides, why does it have to be one or the other?

I dont think it really has to be one or the other. However, most people only have a limited amount of time in which they choose to train, therefore spending time at 3 different schools during the week is not really an option. In saying that, what a person does should be aimed towards the things they are trying to achieve, and in my opinion, if your goal is purely self defence, then there are much more effective ways to learn than doing kata and breaking down the techniques into bunkai.

[Sohan]

You make some very good points Sohan, i will comment on one:

Besides, why does it have to be one or the other?

I dont think it really has to be one or the other. However, most people only have a limited amount of time in which they choose to train, therefore spending time at 3 different schools during the week is not really an option. In saying that, what a person does should be aimed towards the things they are trying to achieve, and in my opinion, if your goal is purely self defence, then there are much more effective ways to learn than doing kata and breaking down the techniques into bunkai.

I admit I do have more time to train and more flexibility than most. As a health and fitness profession, I am compelled to take my training seriously. However, my feeling is that we always have time for things in our life that we value. I value my family and my martial arts, so I prioritize my time to reflect this. I am no different from the 45 year old businessman training 15-18 hours a week for an Ironman triathlon, the 38 year old female masters swimmer putting in 2 hours of practice per day, or the 50 year old tennis player who practices daily and has tournaments each weekend.

I certainly think that if one were to pursue an MMA ring career, MT/BJJ training would undoubtedly be superior and more efficient than karate. But with regards to self-defense, I feel that my karate training may actually be superior to my MT and BJJ training in certain areas. By studying karate I have acquired some fairly useful self-defense skills that I have surprised my MT mates with on occasion.

Funny story. I brought a 52 year old Nidan with me to MT training one day. Our trainer put him in with one of the guys for some light sparring. The guy thought my friend would be easy pickings as he had no ring or MT experience and was considerably older and not in as good condition. He threw some jabs and a couple roundhouse kicks that found their mark, but my friend was able to block and counter his attacks fairly well. Finally, the kid comes in on my friend with a jab and overhand right and my friend steps right inside him with an uppercut elbow. Wham! The kid hit the floor like wet cement.

Every system is different and every practitioner is different. Though the tools and learning process may vary, in the end it is what we do with them that matters. I know those who learned a kata 10 years ago and still can't do anything with the techniques that it contains, and others who have learned a kata and in a few months can apply it like pros. I also have guys in my Thai boxing school who have been there for years who wouldn't last 30 seconds against some of our green belts.

With respect,

Sohan

[patusai]

Kata helps to develop balance and technique. There is nothing that can be done, be it kata, kumite or any other training that can address every possible technique thrown at you. As for the importance of kata, it would depend on how important one would think basics are...AND please understand...Kata is not the only way to develop basics That's my way of looking at it.