The Uselessness of Kata

[username8517]

bozteppe vs cheung

I've seen longer versions of this fight though.

THIS is what kung fu should look like:

any of those guys woulda roasted both keyfu and gongyi.

Nice finds. I especially enjoyed the second one.

[NightOwl]

Cool vids! Traditional MA don't have to be 'fluffy', Kata make sense as a way to record and remember sets of moves, but if you can write the moves down (paper wasn't always easy to get back when)/ record them, why spend 1/4 of your training practicing the moves without applying them? Karate kata (since this is the karate form) contain ALOT of moves that usually aren't used anymore...if you want to learn them, use 'em! But kata IS NOT an end in itself.

[NightOwl]

Just curious...comments made that we study kata because that is what the old master did. The comments were made that times changed, yes it did indeed. Year ago master (many of them) refined their techniques and skills in actual street combat. However, times change and conditions change.

I am of the belief that old master would still do well today in combat. Yes, perhaps they would have to make adjustments but none-the-less IMHO the masters would be able to defeat most of the martial artists of today. I am just curious as to know if anyone else believes that old masters would still do well against most modern day masters who train non-traditionally (that is do not use kata)

considering that most of us have never really seen the old masters in action, it's hard to say. I have seen footage of a fight that happened cerca1954 between two chinese masters, and they both looked like a joke. I know there are people back in the day who could actually fight, but I think we tend to over romanticize how good some of them were. Not only that, but given the advances we've had in training and training methods, the guys of today would be at a big advantage. I would not agree that they could beat most of the MA of today. However, that should be qualified - the master of yesterday should be put against a master of today, not just some generic new guy.

Also, muay thai does not have forms. wrestling does not have forms. boxing does not have forms - and traditionally, they have not had forms (other muay have, but muay thai has not) - so would the muaythai fighter 80 years ago have beaten a JMA or CMA master 80 years ago? Way too much speculation in either case. We will never know.

That said though, look at what happened when kano introduced randori - his guys beat the top traditional jujutsu schools in japan.

Ah! Double post, but I do find the topic of 'old masters' intresting, so I'll put in my 2 cents on this as well:

Having studied some of the history of CMA, there have been times when MA DID in fact become for the most part 'all show' even in the past. In 1804, the Qing Emperor complained that the combat system taught to the army had , "(become) all flowery movements...only for show and performances, not for practical use." Then again, you also have instances like the MMA competition in 1260 where entrants had to waiver any liabilities for 'being beaten to death.' Also, in 1920's the nationalist goverment banned 'open challenges' where an inspiring teacher would establiush himself by issuing a fighting challenge in the town where he wanted to set up (or if he wanted to take over a school). Certainly during THESE times if you didn't know your stuff, you would face a WORLD of hurt. Thus, there were and WERE NOT old MAs who could handle themselves. Good fighters have never been part of the mainstream anyhow, there were never any 'good old days', but people are not superhuman today either. The idea of combative MA has come in and out of fasion (usually fading more into 'arts' during times of peace), but MMA are not a new idea. Personally if it came to toughness, i'd bet on ancient greek no-hold-barred wrestlers (I'm going blank on the name at the moment...). Killing your opponent was considered a sure way to win back then....

[bushido_man96]

kata doesnt full train you for a fight, and that is why it is not the ONLY thing trained... that would be like saying for example all u ever train for ure boxing is shadow boxing... u will win against someone inexperienced... but when u get in a real fight u will be toast...

u missed that part.....

I didn't miss it, but I felt it was the main part of your arguement.

[bushido_man96]

I am of the belief that old master would still do well today in combat. Yes, perhaps they would have to make adjustments but none-the-less IMHO the masters would be able to defeat most of the martial artists of today. I am just curious as to know if anyone else believes that old masters would still do well against most modern day masters who train non-traditionally (that is do not use kata)

This depends on what kind of training that they did. If their only training was in kata and bunkai, then I'd say no. If they used training partners to spar at a higher contact level, and grappled together, then I'd say they would have a chance to be competitive.

[bushido_man96]

here's the fight I was referring to earlier. chen kefu vs wu gongyi.

Not much fun to watch, really. You would think they would get their hands up! That drives me crazy!

[bushido_man96]

bozteppe vs cheung

I've seen longer versions of this fight though.

I had trouble determining who the winner was here, but it looked pretty one-sided.

THIS is what kung fu should look like:

any of those guys woulda roasted both keyfu and gongyi.

That was a cool video to watch. I liked it.

[bushido_man96]

Personally if it came to toughness, i'd bet on ancient greek no-hold-barred wrestlers (I'm going blank on the name at the moment...). Killing your opponent was considered a sure way to win back then....

I think you are describing Pankration.

[NightOwl]

Ah yes, that's what I was looking for! Anyhow, the point being that the 'old guys' were not necessarily pushovers. There were plenty who were quite formidable, but niether were they all invincible demi-gods who could take on 100+ men, win UFC in 5 seconds, etc. (but they could make a mean pita ). Reality is somewhere between "The old masters could take on anyone...look at Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon!", and "A MMA granny could wipe the floor with anyone who came from before Gracie! After all, people were stupider and NEVER trained as hard as we do today!".

[bushido_man96]

I am not sure about all that. Previously, if the "old masters" really wanted to test themselves, the only way was to walk around, challenging people, or hanging out in the bars or rough neighborhoods. The school of hard knocks can be a great learning university!