The Uselessness of Kata

[elbows_and_knees]

Just curious...comments made that we study kata because that is what the old master did. The comments were made that times changed, yes it did indeed. Year ago master (many of them) refined their techniques and skills in actual street combat. However, times change and conditions change.

I am of the belief that old master would still do well today in combat. Yes, perhaps they would have to make adjustments but none-the-less IMHO the masters would be able to defeat most of the martial artists of today. I am just curious as to know if anyone else believes that old masters would still do well against most modern day masters who train non-traditionally (that is do not use kata)

considering that most of us have never really seen the old masters in action, it's hard to say. I have seen footage of a fight that happened cerca 1954 between two chinese masters, and they both looked like a joke. I know there are people back in the day who could actually fight, but I think we tend to over romanticize how good some of them were. Not only that, but given the advances we've had in training and training methods, the guys of today would be at a big advantage. I would not agree that they could beat most of the MA of today. However, that should be qualified - the master of yesterday should be put against a master of today, not just some generic new guy.

Also, muay thai does not have forms. wrestling does not have forms. boxing does not have forms - and traditionally, they have not had forms (other muay have, but muay thai has not) - so would the muaythai fighter 80 years ago have beaten a JMA or CMA master 80 years ago? Way too much speculation in either case. We will never know.

That said though, look at what happened when kano introduced randori - his guys beat the top traditional jujutsu schools in japan.

[username8517]

that's actually not relevant. This discussion is about the uselessness of kata. I can teach someone to fight very effectively without kata. Thus, my arguments are all against them. What else is trained is not pertinent. However, since you admit that kata doesn't train you fully for a fight, why do you think you need them so much?

This is a very good point you bring up here, however, it is not as black and white. I will whole-heartedly agree that there are other ways to train someone to fight using methods other than kata. Kata is a tool for multiple things including, but not limited to:

Balance

Focus

Strikes

Grapples

Take-downs

Blocks

Increasing Endurance

Increasing Muscle Strength

Creative Thinking

Can each of these things be worked on through other methods--absolutely. I personally do not rely on my kata to get me through a fight. Which is why I also focus on attacks and defenses against a live opponent (though not nearly as much as my kata as I often practice kata as a warm-up and cool down for exercises). But I do rely on it to work on all the above. I'll even work out some bunkai I pull from kata in situations to see how effective they really are. And truth be told, sometimes they are and sometimes they're not.

Bottom line is that it all comes down to personal perference and what you want out of kata. If you're solely looking for a complete fighting sytle, then yes kata is lacking. However, I look at kata as a tool to combine all the above mentioned things into one exercise and give me a basis of what I would like to focus on in live drills.

Edited December 13, 2006 by username8517

[obiwansbane]

bearich just said everything i have been trying to say in one post... if it benefits someone, how can it be useless? sure there are other ways, but why use the other ways when you could use kata?

quite similar really to saying why shadow box? you never get hit back in shadow boxing so you don't know how to fight back after getting knocked a bit ureself.... im not saying its wrong to train shadow boxing as i think it helps quite a bit, but it is the same concept as kata...

as for having a "catalouge" in my brain of all the steps in kata.... i have never yet faced myself in a situation where ive been hit due to thinking "Oh noes which move from which kata should i use!" you just do it, and then maybe in hindsight you will see that it could be compared to a step from a kata...

[elbows_and_knees]

bearich just said everything i have been trying to say in one post... if it benefits someone, how can it be useless? sure there are other ways, but why use the other ways when you could use kata?

Like they say, one man's trash...However, had I posted the thread, I wouldn't have said useless, for that very reason. I would've said unnecessary.

quite similar really to saying why shadow box? you never get hit back in shadow boxing so you don't know how to fight back after getting knocked a bit ureself.... im not saying its wrong to train shadow boxing as i think it helps quite a bit, but it is the same concept as kata...

the difference is that kata is static. you aren't really teaching yourself spontaneousness while fighting, as you can while shadowboxing. shadow boxing is not pre-set. However, notice I've never said that shadowboxing is necessary to learn how to fight. the things it teaches you, you can learn from drilling and sparring.

as for having a "catalouge" in my brain of all the steps in kata.... i have never yet faced myself in a situation where ive been hit due to thinking "Oh noes which move from which kata should i use!" you just do it, and then maybe in hindsight you will see that it could be compared to a step from a kata...

you likely will not - which is kind of what I am getting at. Out of all of these kata, all of these apps, how many will you really ever use? how many will you really ever truly master? very few. this is why I say kata is merely a catalog. It gives you an easy way to transmit techniques to another student. The student will pick and choose the techniques he likes best and master them. He will pass the kata on to his student... and so forth. Most of those apps from the bunkai you learned you will never use. They are just there. Naturally, the next supporter will say, "but at least you have all of those techniques at your disposal, just in case," And as you agree, no you will not. you don't have time to think, which means you use what you know. You will use the techniques that are firmly ingrained into your "muscle memory", and you will never have them all ingrained, but I digress.

Edited December 13, 2006 by elbows_and_knees

[elbows_and_knees]

Grapples

Take-downs

Increasing Muscle Strength

Absolutely. I agree with all of that, except for what I quoted above. Like I said above, if it was my thread, I would've used the word 'unnecessary' as opposed to 'useless'.

As for what I quoted, I mentioned it in an above post, but kata don't adequately simulate kazushi. Without that, there is no throw. I don't think that kata can properly teach throwing and take downs.

As for strength, I agree, but as there is limited progressive resistance, the amount of strength you can gain is also limited. There were other methods used for strength training - carrying vases, weighted shoes, iron rings, stone locks, heavy weapons, etc.

[obiwansbane]

dont know what kazushi is and im too lazy to check so i wont comment on that..

but even though i know that its not necesarry to train kata, it does have its uses... for beginners learning a new kata gives them a whole sense of accomplishment, kind of like gettin a new belt, although u dont have to wait month or years to get it...

i myself find kata as a great form of just lettin loose and going all out and forgetting myself while concentrating on the "fight" i dont know why but i always feel better for it

im gonna stop now as ive said all i have to along with being outta ideas

ill keep watching this thread though its interesting

[elbows_and_knees]

dont know what kazushi is and im too lazy to check so i wont comment on that..

one thing I have to giveyou credit for is that you have no shame admitting your laziness. I notice you do that a lot. Kazushi is off balancing.

but even though i know that its not necesarry to train kata, it does have its uses... for beginners learning a new kata gives them a whole sense of accomplishment, kind of like gettin a new belt, although u dont have to wait month or years to get it...

sometimes. In some styles of kung fu, you make train a form for a year before you learn another. Back in the day, it could be more drawn out than that. That's actually better, as it gives you more time to full internalize the kata and make it yours.

ill keep watching this thread though its interesting

it definitely is.

[elbows_and_knees]

Just curious...comments made that we study kata because that is what the old master did. The comments were made that times changed, yes it did indeed. Year ago master (many of them) refined their techniques and skills in actual street combat. However, times change and conditions change.

I am of the belief that old master would still do well today in combat. Yes, perhaps they would have to make adjustments but none-the-less IMHO the masters would be able to defeat most of the martial artists of today. I am just curious as to know if anyone else believes that old masters would still do well against most modern day masters who train non-traditionally (that is do not use kata)

here's the fight I was referring to earlier. chen kefu vs wu gongyi.

[elbows_and_knees]

bozteppe vs cheung

I've seen longer versions of this fight though.

THIS is what kung fu should look like:

any of those guys woulda roasted both keyfu and gongyi.

[username8517]

Grapples

Take-downs

Increasing Muscle Strength

Absolutely. I agree with all of that, except for what I quoted above. Like I said above, if it was my thread, I would've used the word 'unnecessary' as opposed to 'useless'.

As for what I quoted, I mentioned it in an above post, but kata don't adequately simulate kazushi. Without that, there is no throw. I don't think that kata can properly teach throwing and take downs.

As for strength, I agree, but as there is limited progressive resistance, the amount of strength you can gain is also limited. There were other methods used for strength training - carrying vases, weighted shoes, iron rings, stone locks, heavy weapons, etc.

I will admit that increasing muscle strength is fairly limited in kata application in and of itself, but the ability to add ankle and arm weight can certainly enchance that.

However, there are are take downs and grappling in kata. The key is to look outside the box. Just because a kata is taught that move X, Y, and Z is a punch, turn, and block doesn't mean that's the only application of the series of moves. I have pulled out numerous take-downs and locks out of what seemed like basic moves. Sometimes they work and sometime they don't. But I never know until I practice them of course.

you likely will not - which is kind of what I am getting at. Out of all of these kata, all of these apps, how many will you really ever use? how many will you really ever truly master? very few. this is why I say kata is merely a catalog. It gives you an easy way to transmit techniques to another student. The student will pick and choose the techniques he likes best and master them. He will pass the kata on to his student... and so forth. Most of those apps from the bunkai you learned you will never use. They are just there. Naturally, the next supporter will say, "but at least you have all of those techniques at your disposal, just in case," And as you agree, no you will not. you don't have time to think, which means you use what you know. You will use the techniques that are firmly ingrained into your "muscle memory", and you will never have them all ingrained, but I digress.

I absolutely agree with you here. Of all the bunkai I know and have practiced I have a select few that I tend to utilize on a consistant basis in training.