The Uselessness of Kata

[elbows_and_knees]

low stance lowers ure center of gravity, if ure fighting an opponent tradtionally u would opt for the low stance... it honestly all depends on how you are fighting your opponent... if you are going to go to his level and go for the street fight u shouldnt bother taking martial arts anyways...

stances are meant to teach you transition and footwork. You do not fight from them. low stances really aren't meant to be used in fighting - they are used in training to build muscular endurance in the legs. lowering your body is dynamic - it's done for while you are executing the technique, then you recover. there really is no difference in "going for the street fight" and fighting in martial arts. fighting is not pretty and does not look the way you train it. fighting is fighting. period. fighting from a low stance tends to kill your mobility, which is bad.

if u are going for a grappling approach then by all means do what you want... but kata is trained to perfect the art of fighting an opponent through traditional martial art means...

if you want to be technical, grappling is far more traditional than karate. Every civilization since the beginning of recorded history has had some indigenous folk wrestling.

it mixed various different movements and patterns to build an elevated sense of muscle memory in which the brain mixes and matches certain steps in certain patterns to the fight...

no, it doesn't. but let's say that it does. who has a more "elevated sense of muscle memory" - you who does the SAME combinations in kata repeatedly, or me, who spontaneously creates my own combinations while shadowboxing?

because once u learn the bunkai ure brain matches certain scenarios to certain techniques so u just remembered it and execute...

you are actually making arguments AGAINST kata, not for it. What happens when you are in a fight and experience a scenario you have not yet dealt with?

if you are training in a TMA that teaches kata, you are obviously expecting to use what you learned for self defence, so this way of using ure knowledge and turning it into muscle memory cannot be see as anything but beneficial...

until you run into an issue like the one above.

[obiwansbane]

you are actually making arguments AGAINST kata, not for it. What happens when you are in a fight and experience a scenario you have not yet dealt with?

hence 26 katas.... fights are usually short and end before they really begin, there is hardly a chance for u not to be able to react... nobody said kata was the soul reason, and the bunkai for certain katas can be different even if its the same move so scenario changes...

kata doesnt full train you for a fight, and that is why it is not the ONLY thing trained... that would be like saying for example all u ever train for ure boxing is shadow boxing... u will win against someone inexperienced... but when u get in a real fight u will be toast...

multiple things are needed to be trained together to get the maximum benefit... and that is why kata is incorporated into the system

[bushido_man96]

you are actually making arguments AGAINST kata, not for it. What happens when you are in a fight and experience a scenario you have not yet dealt with?

hence 26 katas.... fights are usually short and end before they really begin, there is hardly a chance for u not to be able to react... nobody said kata was the soul reason, and the bunkai for certain katas can be different even if its the same move so scenario changes...

Take a karateka who trains in only kata for two years, and a judoka who trains without kata, but in randori, for two years, and let them square off on the mat, or in a fight, etc. What you will learn quickly is that the judoka, who has has more full-speed practice against the resisting opponent will have the upper hand in the match.

[obiwansbane]

kata doesnt full train you for a fight, and that is why it is not the ONLY thing trained... that would be like saying for example all u ever train for ure boxing is shadow boxing... u will win against someone inexperienced... but when u get in a real fight u will be toast...

u missed that part.....

[cross]

Boxing involves taking hits that do superficial damage in hopes of landing a hit that deals maximum damage...

I dont beleive this is the case. It may appear this way because boxing is full contact so getting hit is unavoidable.

That is why perfect form is trained... so that in a situation where u cannot use perfect form, ure reactions will save u with blocks that do the job

The problem is the perfect form you are practising is nothing like the form you use when combat occurs. Having trained using the exact techniques you will be trying to use in a fight will save you. Training in a perfect form and then modifying this to fit into the situation of a fight will not.

[sonofkanga]

I practice KYOKUSHIN.

We have over twenty Kata.

As I understand it,we do Kata for these reasons:

(NOT IN ORDER OF IMPORTANCE):

1.Tradition

2.Art

3.Fun

4.Self training syllabus.

Bunkai and Oyu, are fun and make training intresting but i belive are very much overrated.

[obiwansbane]

The problem is the perfect form you are practising is nothing like the form you use when combat occurs. Having trained using the exact techniques you will be trying to use in a fight will save you. Training in a perfect form and then modifying this to fit into the situation of a fight will not

i beg to differ... when in a fight adreneline takes over... you have no time to think about executing your techniques with the perfect form... you are not modifying the way you do the technique intentionally... it just happens... like i said.. the move clicks and you execute it as best as possible within the given time... how close to form your technique is depends on how much you have practised and how confident you are subconciously in your own skill... if you train something that you feel doesnt work you will modify it subconciously to what you think will work... if you train with the knowledge that executing a technique will work, you will execute it with close to if not the same form as any boxer executes the moves they train

[elbows_and_knees]

hence 26 katas.... fights are usually short and end before they really begin, there is hardly a chance for u not to be able to react... nobody said kata was the soul reason, and the bunkai for certain katas can be different even if its the same move so scenario changes...

you are still agruing against kata. There are 26 of them... more or less in other styles. 26 kata AND bunkai, which as you know and stated has MULTIPLE applications. You have all of that catalogged in your head... Do you think you will have the presence of mind to spontaneously search through all of those katas and apps and pick the proper one for the situation in time? Even though you admit that fights happen quickly?

kata doesnt full train you for a fight, and that is why it is not the ONLY thing trained... that would be like saying for example all u ever train for ure boxing is shadow boxing... u will win against someone inexperienced... but when u get in a real fight u will be toast...

that's actually not relevant. This discussion is about the uselessness of kata. I can teach someone to fight very effectively without kata. Thus, my arguments are all against them. What else is trained is not pertinent. However, since you admit that kata doesn't train you fully for a fight, why do you think you need them so much?

[elbows_and_knees]

i beg to differ... when in a fight adreneline takes over... you have no time to think about executing your techniques with the perfect form... you are not modifying the way you do the technique intentionally... it just happens... like i said.. the move clicks and you execute it as best as possible within the given time... how close to form your technique is depends on how much you have practised and how confident you are subconciously in your own skill... if you train something that you feel doesnt work you will modify it subconciously to what you think will work... if you train with the knowledge that executing a technique will work, you will execute it with close to if not the same form as any boxer executes the moves they train

here's a question - how much do you know about adrenaline? most people LOVE to use it as their scapegoat for what they will or will not do in a fight - "I will be stronger, I will be more focused," etc. What most people don't realize is that adrenaline dump is FAST after 2 minutes or less, it's gone. Once it's gone, extreme fatigue starts to set in.

Consequently, between that and the other stresses involved, you are correct - you will NOT have time to modify the techniques intentionally, which can be a problem. I've listed examples before of "interpreted" moves in forms that are done differently in the form than they are actually applied. If you try it the way it's performed in the form, it will not work. That is the point cross was making. When you have moves in a kata that you are doing that aren't done the way they should be in order to be effective, then in a fight, you will do them the way you do them in the kata - the wrong way. A good example is throwing. most of the grappling and throwing you see in kata is not done that way in actual application. the form does not teach you kazushi, it jumps straight to tskuri, and in some cases, there is no kake, because you transition to the next technique.

with boxing, there is no modification to make. My jab in shadowboxing, bagwork, sparring and fighting are all the same. Therein lies the efficiency of it.

[patusai]

Just curious...comments made that we study kata because that is what the old master did. The comments were made that times changed, yes it did indeed. Year ago master (many of them) refined their techniques and skills in actual street combat. However, times change and conditions change.

I am of the belief that old master would still do well today in combat. Yes, perhaps they would have to make adjustments but none-the-less IMHO the masters would be able to defeat most of the martial artists of today. I am just curious as to know if anyone else believes that old masters would still do well against most modern day masters who train non-traditionally (that is do not use kata)