The Uselessness of Kata

[Jiffy]

There's some great posts here, most of which I agree with.

Think of kata like a dictionary. Anyone from any language could pick up a dictionary, and it contains within it's pages every word one will need to use the language, but without understanding how they are constructed together in real life and practicing the pronounciation regularly, they will never be able to speak english well.

Kata is no different. It is a vocabulary of techniques and principles that really do work out in the street, but if you don't know which techniques to use for a given scenario, how to apply them or how to put them together, then Kata is nothing more than a workout. If on the other hand you do know these things, and you practise them, I honestly believe Kata will be the best self defence tool you will ever come across.

[cross]

I agree with the original poster.

When reading my post keep in mind im aware that there are schools out the that train in bunkai effectively, this post is not targetted at them. I will try and provide my thoughts on the most common beliefs of kata followers.

The majority of schools these days do lots of kata (just look at the kata list from people on this forum) but rarely work on the application of the techniques.

In the event that a school trains the application it is rarely a technique that will work against a fully commited and resisting opponent. The majority of training is done with a complient opponent and the technique itself relies on a large number of variables matching up to allow the technique to work.

Kata is a good workout..? Maybe so, but these days there are much more effective ways to build endurance, conditioning, stamina, strength etc, than performing solo kata.

kata is what the old masters did so it must be good... Since the times of these old masters we have made leaps and bounds when it comes to new information about what works and doesnt work in combat. Look at the ufc, like it or not, when you watch the ufc you will see what actually WORKS when:

1. someone is throwing a series of full speed strikes at you.

2. someone is holding onto you at close range and is throwing strikes.

3. someone has you on the ground and is trying to snap your arm/leg or choke you out.

Kata is for defending against an untrained attacker... This to me is a bit of a cop out... its like saying, "kata doesnt have to work against someone who knows how to fight". That may be true, but my question is.. Why settle? Now days people have access to huge amounts of information regarding the most common things that happen in a fight and the best ways to deal with them. If you train to defend yourself against a trained attacker thats one less thing you have to worry about in the heat of battle.

 

You dont see kata techniques in kumite because the techniques are the ideal way to perform them and they must be modified.... Why? If you need to modify the technique, why train the original one that will never be used? so you learn the mechanics of the technique or how to perform the technique correctly? If you are modifying it then its not the same technique anyway.

This is a start, i look forward to everyones replies.

[username8517]

I've already gone into detail many pages back about my beliefs about kata so I won't address them again, rather I will merely play devil's advocate in the spirit of a good healthy debate.

Kata is a good workout..? Maybe so, but these days there are much more effective ways to build endurance, conditioning, stamina, strength etc, than performing solo kata.

True. If I want to work on my strength, I can hit the weight room. And my cardio can be built up by doing laps in the pool. However, I really don't enjoy swimming. I'm not saying I can't swim, it's just not something I enjoy doing--I find it somewhat boring in all honesty (yes I'm crazy I know). I'd take four hours of kata over an hour of swimming, but that's just me.

Performing kata for workout is not ineffective if you want to work on your endurance, conditioning, stamina, strength, etc, but that should not the sole purpose behind it (or at least shouldn't be if you're running through kata with any kind of bunkai behind it). Are there other options, sure, but does that mean that you can only hit the weight room to work on building muscle mass? Or the track to work on your cardio?

kata is what the old masters did so it must be good... Since the times of these old masters we have made leaps and bounds when it comes to new information about what works and doesnt work in combat. Look at the ufc, like it or not, when you watch the ufc you will see what actually WORKS when:

1. someone is throwing a series of full speed strikes at you.

2. someone is holding onto you at close range and is throwing strikes.

3. someone has you on the ground and is trying to snap your arm/leg or choke you out.

Yes, the UFC and other MMA has shown a wide range of what you can expect to see in a fight. However, MMA is bound by rules, not only for the fighters' safety, but to ensure they can stay on tv. Here are the rules for UFC. In it you will find a lot of moves found in various katas that are considers fouls, and otherwise outlawed, such as eye strikes, groin strikes, small joint manipulation, striking the spine, throat strikes, etc. etc. If these are so ineffective and impractical in a fight, why would they be outlawed in MMA fights?

Kata is for defending against an untrained attacker... This to me is a bit of a cop out... its like saying, "kata doesnt have to work against someone who knows how to fight". That may be true, but my question is.. Why settle? Now days people have access to huge amounts of information regarding the most common things that happen in a fight and the best ways to deal with them. If you train to defend yourself against a trained attacker thats one less thing you have to worry about in the heat of battle.

I too think this is a cop-out, regardless of what side of the arguement your are on. However, I cannot recall hearing this come from anyone who believes there is use behind kata. Mainly I hear it come from those who try to debunk arguments as to why kata is practical.

You dont see kata techniques in kumite because the techniques are the ideal way to perform them and they must be modified.... Why? If you need to modify the technique, why train the original one that will never be used? so you learn the mechanics of the technique or how to perform the technique correctly? If you are modifying it then its not the same technique anyway.

Once again, kumite is governed by rules so I won't touch that one. However, in regards to modifying techniques--a wise man once told me "Fighting isn't pretty." Meaning you will never see a fight take place where someone performs their entire fight executing perfected moves. Maybe one or two moves, yeah--maybe. However, the reason you practice moves to build certain reflexes in your body to different stimuli your brain encounters allowing you to react without thinking.

Take tieing your shoes for example. When you were little your parents showed your the basic proper way to do so. They made sure all the directions were plain, easy to understand, and pretty. And they watched you until they felt you could tie your shoes without their assistance or correction. Now, when you tie your shoes I bet it looks distinctly different than when you were a child. Gone are days of making slow precise moves to put your shoes on. Rather with a couple quick flicks of the hands your shoes are tied and your ready to go--all without thinking about what step came next in the lace tieing order.

[NightOwl]

There's some great posts here, most of which I agree with.

Think of kata like a dictionary. Anyone from any language could pick up a dictionary, and it contains within it's pages every word one will need to use the language, but without understanding how they are constructed together in real life and practicing the pronounciation regularly, they will never be able to speak english well.

Kata is no different. It is a vocabulary of techniques and principles that really do work out in the street, but if you don't know which techniques to use for a given scenario, how to apply them or how to put them together, then Kata is nothing more than a workout. If on the other hand you do know these things, and you practise them, I honestly believe Kata will be the best self defence tool you will ever come across.

I agree, and the problem that I usually have with kata (at least in my experience) is that what is being done is usually not shown later on in a trainging situation. Instead, kata have become sort of a world into themselves and gone into something different then combat application and into a form of exercise/art. That is fine with me as long as that's what they are taken for (the 'art' of martial arts), but in their present form kata in my opinion are not very useful for training for fighting/self defense

[elbows_and_knees]

Yes, the UFC and other MMA has shown a wide range of what you can expect to see in a fight. However, MMA is bound by rules, not only for the fighters' safety, but to ensure they can stay on tv. Here are the rules for UFC. In it you will find a lot of moves found in various katas that are considers fouls, and otherwise outlawed, such as eye strikes, groin strikes, small joint manipulation, striking the spine, throat strikes, etc. etc. If these are so ineffective and impractical in a fight, why would they be outlawed in MMA fights?

those same outlawed techniques can only be trained in the air, or done with light contact. Consequently, it's not known by the practitioner how well they will be able to use them, as they have never really used them. That said, when they do happen to be implemented properly, they can cause damage. This is why they were outlawed. In the early UFC and vale tudo, eye gouges were permitted. You would be fined, but not disqualified. While this was in effect, gerard gordeau fought a man named yuki nakai. gordeau eye gouged him while grappling - badly. yuki was blinded, but still beat gordeau AND won his next fight. to this day, nakai is blind. THAT is why these techniques are outlawed. obviously, the gouge wasn't enough to end the fight - he still lost. However, the long term effect was that this man - who WON the fight - is permanently blinded. If that were the street, yuki would be blinded, but gordeau may be dead. So, what good did it do? he still lost.

Once again, kumite is governed by rules so I won't touch that one. However, in regards to modifying techniques--a wise man once told me "Fighting isn't pretty." Meaning you will never see a fight take place where someone performs their entire fight executing perfected moves. Maybe one or two moves, yeah--maybe. However, the reason you practice moves to build certain reflexes in your body to different stimuli your brain encounters allowing you to react without thinking.

by modified, he means in execution. for example, there is a technique in CMA called shoot the bow. One application of it is a fireman's carry. BUT, it's trained stationary, not with fireman's carry follow through. How well would you use it in a grappling situation? not very well, as the technique has to be changed somewhat and the practitioner may not be used to that. Also, deep, low stances for the sake of building leg endurance - you don't fight that way, so why train that way? yet another modifcation.

[obiwansbane]

low stance lowers ure center of gravity, if ure fighting an opponent tradtionally u would opt for the low stance... it honestly all depends on how you are fighting your opponent... if you are going to go to his level and go for the street fight u shouldnt bother taking martial arts anyways...

if u are going for a grappling approach then by all means do what you want... but kata is trained to perfect the art of fighting an opponent through traditional martial art means... it mixed various different movements and patterns to build an elevated sense of muscle memory in which the brain mixes and matches certain steps in certain patterns to the fight... we shall use heian godan for an example... if i was fighting an opponent and they fell to the ground, instead of just kicking them while they are down i would go for the palm/shuto however ure club teaches it to the groin on chest, because once u learn the bunkai ure brain matches certain scenarios to certain techniques so u just remembered it and execute... if you are training in a TMA that teaches kata, you are obviously expecting to use what you learned for self defence, so this way of using ure knowledge and turning it into muscle memory cannot be see as anything but beneficial...

that is my rant... sorry if it doesnt make sense im lazy and dont really use much punctuation ever

[username8517]

those same outlawed techniques can only be trained in the air, or done with light contact. Consequently, it's not known by the practitioner how well they will be able to use them, as they have never really used them. That said, when they do happen to be implemented properly, they can cause damage. This is why they were outlawed.

That and it was the only way to get UFC back on the air. After the first few UFC bouts, it was basically banned for being too violent. If I remember correctly, basically the only rules back then were 1) no eye gouging and 2) no biting. It wasn't until Dana White and his investors added new rules that it was sanctioned again. And then in only 21 states.

In the early UFC and vale tudo, eye gouges were permitted. You would be fined, but not disqualified. While this was in effect, gerard gordeau fought a man named yuki nakai. gordeau eye gouged him while grappling - badly. yuki was blinded, but still beat gordeau AND won his next fight. to this day, nakai is blind. THAT is why these techniques are outlawed. obviously, the gouge wasn't enough to end the fight - he still lost. However, the long term effect was that this man - who WON the fight - is permanently blinded. If that were the street, yuki would be blinded, but gordeau may be dead. So, what good did it do? he still lost.

Not sure about the UFC allowing eye gouging, but I believe this is merely one instance of a highly skilled fighter overcoming adversity. While as you state, an eye gouge wasn't enough to end the fight this time, I would bet the majority of the time it would be in a street fight. It's like that old piece of advice I received when I first started grappling, if something doesn't work, move on to the next one--don't keep trying to make the same move succeed.

by modified, he means in execution. for example, there is a technique in CMA called shoot the bow. One application of it is a fireman's carry. BUT, it's trained stationary, not with fireman's carry follow through. How well would you use it in a grappling situation? not very well, as the technique has to be changed somewhat and the practitioner may not be used to that. Also, deep, low stances for the sake of building leg endurance - you don't fight that way, so why train that way? yet another modifcation.

I absolutely agree with you here. Sure low stances are used for building leg endurance and strength, but it's also used for balance and stability (lower center of gravity). However, I would never fight from one of those positions. Would I use it as a transitional stance--yeah--but never for a whole encounter.

Every move you learn in a MA will have to be modified to fit a live situation, as will anything to learn in a boxing, mauy thai, or reality-based self-defense course as nothing on the street will ever be exactly the way you practice it. Blocks executed against an opponent will not look exactly the same as practice nor will any strikes you throw. So if you're going to have some sort of basis for what the fundementals of your fighting style should look like, why is kata such as bad thing??

[bushido_man96]

The majority of schools these days do lots of kata (just look at the kata list from people on this forum) but rarely work on the application of the techniques.

This is a problem at my school. We don't do any forms applications, and hardly any self-defense applications, for that matter.

Kata is a good workout..? Maybe so, but these days there are much more effective ways to build endurance, conditioning, stamina, strength etc, than performing solo kata.

There can be more to forms than just this. However, it is up to the instructor to make it more (train applications). Sometimes, it just seems that forms are required curriculum.

kata is what the old masters did so it must be good...

 

I think that this is a problem with the way that many things are done in the martial arts, and not just the forms.

Since the times of these old masters we have made leaps and bounds when it comes to new information about what works and doesnt work in combat. Look at the ufc, like it or not, when you watch the ufc you will see what actually WORKS when:

1. someone is throwing a series of full speed strikes at you.

2. someone is holding onto you at close range and is throwing strikes.

3. someone has you on the ground and is trying to snap your arm/leg or choke you out.

I like this. Very good point.

Yes, the UFC and other MMA has shown a wide range of what you can expect to see in a fight. However, MMA is bound by rules, not only for the fighters' safety, but to ensure they can stay on tv. Here are the rules for UFC. In it you will find a lot of moves found in various katas that are considers fouls, and otherwise outlawed, such as eye strikes, groin strikes, small joint manipulation, striking the spine, throat strikes, etc. etc. If these are so ineffective and impractical in a fight, why would they be outlawed in MMA fights?

Yes, the UFC is bound by rules, however, the UFC is the only event that is relatively close to what an actual encounter can produce. Aside from the limited rule set, the training that MMA fighters do is done against resisting partners, which makes for a more accurate training scenario.

low stance lowers ure center of gravity, if ure fighting an opponent tradtionally u would opt for the low stance... it honestly all depends on how you are fighting your opponent... if you are going to go to his level and go for the street fight u shouldnt bother taking martial arts anyways...

The lower that you make your base, then the wider you usually have to move your feet apart. Although this will give you some stability, it also presents a leg way out infront as a target. Also, the wider your stance is, the harder it is to transition into another position. That is why boxers, Thai boxers, and Olympic TKD stylists prefer much higher, mobile fighting stances.

[cross]

Every move you learn in a MA will have to be modified to fit a live situation, as will anything to learn in a boxing, mauy thai, or reality-based self-defense course as nothing on the street will ever be exactly the way you practice it.

The differences in technique application in the arts you mentioned there are subtle, where the differences in styles that practice kata are quiet large.

Take for example, a basic punch.

In boxing if you are learning a punch, you are learning how to do the punch the correct way from the start. Both hands are up in the guard you will be fighting from, you are standing in the stance you will be fighting from, the punch goes out and comes back the same way you will throw it when you are applying it. Everything is done how it will be done in application. And everytime you practice it in shadow boxing, on a bag, in sparring etc you are doing it the way it is supposed to be applied.

In karate you learn to punch with your hand on your side and your other hand low, in a deep stance. Then when it comes application, the punch is nothing like this.

Another example is defensive skills,

In boxing your major defence is movement including footwork and head movement. Also a good cover and some parries round it out. Whenever these things are practiced its done the way they are done when applied.

The blocks in karate are never seen in sparring. Either they are modified, or people will say "there are no blocks in karate". If thats the case, why call them blocks and say they are blocks and train them like blocks in kata and kihon?

The footwork and stance used in kata is very different to what you see used in sparring. So although its impossible to perform your techniques perfectly, because we all know fights are never perfect, some styles approach to train require alot more technique modification than others.

[obiwansbane]

one again i bring it back to muscle memory... if people tell you that there are no blocks in karate then tell them that they are obviously not doing karate... in a tense situation nobody can be expected to perform perfectly.. but if one trains technique perfectly, the muscle memory will even if it lowers the standard, produce a good block at opposed to perfect block... if blocks were trained lax like they are actually performed you would get hit every time...

Boxing involves taking hits that do superficial damage in hopes of landing a hit that deals maximum damage... in karate all u are doing is directing some elses attack away from ureself and using their off balanceness to land a nice hit... therefore even the slightest flaw in the block will just allow them to redirect the punch to hit u right in the face... That is why perfect form is trained... so that in a situation where u cannot use perfect form, ure reactions will save u with blocks that do the job