The Uselessness of Kata

[bushido_man96]

On that note. If I wanted to look for self enlightment I would go to church I am in Martail art to look to better my self defense abilities and to have fun.

I agree with you here. It is a good thing to try to instill morals and ethics in people as martial artists, however, it cannot fall directly to us, and we should remember that it is very difficult to reshape an adult, who is so set in there ways.

[shukokai2000]

YOU WROTE "quote"

i am new here. I have been training in Karate for over 20 years and hold 4th Dan.

In recent years I have come to the conclusion that practising Kata is ineffective.

"You need to find the true bunkai, and redeem yourself"

[Quien]

I think all of us have gone through a time in which we didn't enjoy kata practising and thought it was a stupid exercise.

Only with the time you realise how important they are to a martial artist formation, how much of real combat they have, and how they are the only working method to develope some aspects of the martial artist. If you don't realise about it, you aren't working them in a correct way, you are only looking to karate as a sport or a sparring method, or both solutions.

It's in a superior kata where you see most of a martial artist techniques and skills, and what makes you realise about his real level in karate. At least, I understand it so.

[elbows_and_knees]

But these things, whatever you call it, at the end of the day should produce a fighter yes/no? Traditional arts, whatever the reasons you practice them should make you a better fighter, so isn't whether or not you call them a martial art or a sport art irrelevant because both are essentially about fighting and so both are fighting arts?

not necessarily. Not everyone trains with hopes of being a better fighter. Actually, most people don't. Why do you think it is that taiji for health is so popular? most people will tell you they started training because they were inspired by a movie or that they want a different means of getting in shape - look at how tae bo caught on. Most people do not want to learn how to fight.

That said though, I personally am in agreement with you. I think ANY style, be it traditional or "sport" you make you a better fighter.

[elbows_and_knees]

Modern Muay Thai that we see today (the sport aspect of it) has been derived from traditional Muay Thai. If the Muay Thai practioners of the past did not perserved their forms to perfection, do you think that the sport Muay Thai would be what it is today?

yes, they would have.

1. as stated earlier, the forms are now pretty much extinct.

2. muay thai was created to GET AWAY from traditional stuff - many of the techniques were too hard to pull off in fights and were considered useless.

Not really sure if we're in a disagreement here or not. Any style contains many techniques that will be hard to pull of in a fight. The reason I brought up Muay Thai was because the original topics was about a quote saying that drills had to be derived from forms. I used Muay Thai as an example to illustrate how the sport aspect is different from the traditional aspect, but yet how the sport aspect would not be what it is (i.e.--contain the moves it does and they way their executed) without the tradition of such styles as Krabi Krabong and other Thai arts.

However, having never studied Muay Thai, I must admit my knowledge is limited to documentaries and information found in books. if you would please be kind enough to share with me why you think Muay Thai would be what it is today without the basis of the traditional Thai arts, from a first hand experience, I would like to hear your viewpoint and take it into consideration.

traditional thai styles have always had a focus on fighting. Even back in the day, they trained so that they could compete, and also to fight in war. Many of the best thai boxers were soldiers. If you watch thai training, you see pad drills and sparring drills - nothing that can't be done without a form or other preset traditional drill. That said, the forms have not been preserved to pefection - they have actually been forgotten. But that hasn't stopped muay thai from being effective.

krabbi krabong, really doesn't have that much influence on muay thai. It's more akin to TCMA in nature. There are a lot of weapons, primarily the sword, and it's empty hand stuff is a lot of pressure point striking, locks, throws, strikes, etc. only about 30% of what you will see in it is used in muay thai.

Furthermore, where do you think Muay Thai is going to go twenty years from now if we as a MA community only focus solely on the sport aspect of it?

we've been focusing on that aspect for centuries. As stated above, competition in thai styles is not new. Muay thai was when it went mainstream around 1920, but muay chaiya, muay lopburi, muay lon lon, etc. all competed as well. Competition was a part of what they did, just as it is today.

I completely agree here. To me, the key word is sport--not martial art (which I'll address later on). Take boxing for example--as you mention it has been one of the most popular and influencial sports in the US for quite some time. But if you were to take a poll I'm willing to bet the vast majority of people would view it as either a fighting style or sport over a martial art. I believe Muay Thai is heading in the same boat; where people will forget of the martial art heritage of it.

as stated above, it has already been forgotten. muay boran is an attempt to recover some of what was lost. It's a combination of what is known about the older styles. We will always know that the old fighters were also soldiers, that part is common knowledge, but as for the styles themselves, they are mostly gone.

[IRKguy]

If you want to win at tounaments at sparring, then kata is of absolutely no value. Sparring is a game of timing and spacing. It is not real fighting. If you want learn a martial art, then kata is the whole game. Everything you need to know about self defense or weapon applications is in the kata, unless the kata in your system are invalid. All of my go-to techniqes against a punch, kick, grab, stab, or blunt weapon attack come from the kata in my system's syllabus.

I've only been training in martial arts for about eight years, but I take the opposite approach. I can't see how kumite or tournament sparring has anything to do with real martial arts.

Maybe you should reconsider how you practice kata. Break the kata down into individual useful techniques. Employ multifaceted bunkai and two to four-man drills on each technique. if you still don't see the value, drop your style and try a new martial art. You will learn new applications of the same body movements.

If you're really not interested, try boxing. In boxing, the kata are shorter: jab, cross, hook, uppercut. Eventually, you might get that the catalogue of techniques in the kata are not intended to be used in sequence or in sporting applications.

Not a sermon, just a thought

I am new here. I have been training in Karate for over 20 years and hold 4th Dan.

In recent years I have come to the conclusion that practising Kata is ineffective.

I know this will upset traditionalists but I had to ask myself some questions:

When was the last time you saw a huge amount of Kata movements used in kumite and contest?

Conclusion? Hardly ever if at all.

The opening sequence of Heian Nidan is never performed in kumite. The opening sequences of Kanku Dai is never performed in kumite. The one legged sequence in Gankau is never performed in kumite...

If one does a thorough analysis of all the Kata one will soon see the vast majority of techniques are never used or are not able to be used.

Kata may be ok for physical exercise but as far as training for kumite its ineffective. Why practise techniques you will never use or cannot be used?

Scientific evidence shows conclusively the more reponses you know to a given stimulus (an attack) the slower your reaction time. (see A Study of Reaction and Response Time In Subject Control Training By Joe Ferrera):

A quote:

The object of this study was to examine aspects of human performance and how it relates to reaction and response time. We have discussed what reaction time and response time are pointing out the differences of each. We know reaction time is the time it takes between perception of a threat and initiation of an action to counter the perceived threat. Response time adds to this the time it takes to complete the initiated action. This study demonstrates that with only two choices, i.e. forearm block or wrist block, the time it takes for humans to perceive, evaluate, formulate a plan, and initiate action increases by as much as 23% over a single choice. The more choices in response techniques the mind has to evaluate for a given threat the longer it takes to initiate action. This study supports the theory of teaching fewer response techniques to cover a wider range of threat cues. By providing the officer the least amount of choices in responding to a threat you increase the officer’s ability to respond faster. As instructors we should be teaching effective techniques that apply to many situations thereby reducing the number of choices an officer has to evaluate. Teaching fewer techniques and using the limited training time for more repetitions gives an added advantage of increasing the officer’s confidence in his, or her, ability to perform the techniques under stress. - Joe Ferrera

Therefore Bruce Lee is right. Too many techniques are detrimental not beneficial.

Scientifically Kata practise does not hold under scrutiny.

Boxers, Muay Thai fighters, UFC fighters etc do not practise Kata as a general rule and are yet highly capable fighters.

Again Bruce Lee was right Kata/forms are ineffective

[mantis.style]

not necessarily. Not everyone trains with hopes of being a better fighter. Actually, most people don't. Why do you think it is that taiji for health is so popular? most people will tell you they started training because they were inspired by a movie or that they want a different means of getting in shape - look at how tae bo caught on. Most people do not want to learn how to fight.

That said though, I personally am in agreement with you. I think ANY style, be it traditional or "sport" you make you a better fighter.

Well, I'm not talking about WHY people want to learn but rather what learning should teach you. It's like this, you want to eat nice food so along the process, you learn to cook. You want to get healthy and go to a MA class, part of the process would end up that you know how to fight, ignoring questions of tai chi's effectiveness. That is what I meant. This is also why so many Tai Chi classes annoy me because in my opinion, if you cant fight with it afterwards, you are not learning it properly so why go to a tai chi class in the first place? If you aren't learning it properly, how much benefit are you really getting out it?

DON'T talk about tae-bo...

And thank you for the response. I've been reading the discussions here and your responses are things that stand out as being worth more than some others.

[elbows_and_knees]

not necessarily. Not everyone trains with hopes of being a better fighter. Actually, most people don't. Why do you think it is that taiji for health is so popular? most people will tell you they started training because they were inspired by a movie or that they want a different means of getting in shape - look at how tae bo caught on. Most people do not want to learn how to fight.

That said though, I personally am in agreement with you. I think ANY style, be it traditional or "sport" you make you a better fighter.

Well, I'm not talking about WHY people want to learn but rather what learning should teach you. It's like this, you want to eat nice food so along the process, you learn to cook. You want to get healthy and go to a MA class, part of the process would end up that you know how to fight, ignoring questions of tai chi's effectiveness. That is what I meant. This is also why so many Tai Chi classes annoy me because in my opinion, if you cant fight with it afterwards, you are not learning it properly so why go to a tai chi class in the first place? If you aren't learning it properly, how much benefit are you really getting out it?

DON'T talk about tae-bo...

And thank you for the response. I've been reading the discussions here and your responses are things that stand out as being worth more than some others.

And I guess that's part of it too - you can't teach someone what they don't want to learn. Using myself as an example, by day I am a web developer. In college, I had to take a cobol class. Now, as I'm sure you know, cobol has absolutely zero to do with the web. Consequently, I didn't wanna learn it. And to this day, I can't program a lick of cobol, even though I passed the class. mentally, I knew that wasn't what I wanted, so I just did enough to get by. I didn't internalize it. I didn't try to learn it. fighting is no different. I can try and teach a person all day, but until they internalize it and decide that they want to do what it takes to really learn it, then they will just go through the motions - which will not teach them how to fight.

Thanks for the kind words. Since you've joined the forum, your posts are among those that I look forward to reading as well.

[ps1]

Funakoshi himself said, "Kata is not fighting." Kata is never going to save your life. It is a set of repetitious movements designed to teach and create habits. Also contained therein are seveal techniques for self defense. You are not supposed to take and internalize each and every one. You internalize the ones that are most necessary to you. This is the same in BJJ. There are countless techniques I have learned. I don't use even half of them. They just don't all work for me and my body type. I remember them in case someone else could use them. I'm sure I've forgotten some as well...so what.

But just practicing kata alone will never make you a good fighter. You must take the techniques that work for you and drill them in one-steps, three-steps, and random kumite. This is no different than a boxer shadow boxing then hitting a heavy bag then hitting the pads then doing some light sparring. The reason that boxing, muay thai, bjj, judo and so on are so effective is because its proponents are the ones that most commonly practice hard against a fully resisting opponent. There are plenty of karateka out there who were good fighters...Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, Kathy Long ect... I'm not saying they could get in the ring with some of today's fighers. But that's true of nearly every sport (which UFC and Pride and other MMA venues are). Imagine what would happen today if Jack Lambert (Pittsburgh Steelers Hall of Fame Linebacker from the 70s) were to try to get through the 300+ lb linemen that every team has now in football (American). He'd be slaughtered. I'm just saying that anyone who believes that Kata is fighting hasn't studied Karate properly. But that doesn't make kata any more useless than shadowboxing or drilling any other movements.

[bushido_man96]

Funakoshi himself said, "Kata is not fighting." Kata is never going to save your life. It is a set of repetitious movements designed to teach and create habits. Also contained therein are seveal techniques for self defense. You are not supposed to take and internalize each and every one. You internalize the ones that are most necessary to you. This is the same in BJJ. There are countless techniques I have learned. I don't use even half of them. They just don't all work for me and my body type. I remember them in case someone else could use them. I'm sure I've forgotten some as well...so what.

But just practicing kata alone will never make you a good fighter. You must take the techniques that work for you and drill them in one-steps, three-steps, and random kumite. This is no different than a boxer shadow boxing then hitting a heavy bag then hitting the pads then doing some light sparring. The reason that boxing, muay thai, bjj, judo and so on are so effective is because its proponents are the ones that most commonly practice hard against a fully resisting opponent. There are plenty of karateka out there who were good fighters...Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, Kathy Long ect... I'm not saying they could get in the ring with some of today's fighers. But that's true of nearly every sport (which UFC and Pride and other MMA venues are). Imagine what would happen today if Jack Lambert (Pittsburgh Steelers Hall of Fame Linebacker from the 70s) were to try to get through the 300+ lb linemen that every team has now in football (American). He'd be slaughtered. I'm just saying that anyone who believes that Kata is fighting hasn't studied Karate properly. But that doesn't make kata any more useless than shadowboxing or drilling any other movements.

Awesome post. Lots of good points there.