The Uselessness of Kata

[username8517]

I guess the one big problem I have with the broad definition of what a martial art is comes from only what people describe as Eastern arts. The Western fighting arts that helped shape our world as it is get no respect from the martial art standpoint, and I don't feel that it should be that way. Boxing and wrestling are just as viable as karate and kung-fu, it is just a completely different culture of training and ideals.

I will, as I have before, conceeded that boxing and wrestling are just as viable avenues for defense as karate, kung-fu, . However, by my definition of what I believe a martial art is, the need to have a set of philosophies a beliefs behind them is the core of what makes it an art rather than a fighting style. An art, to me, is something that you not only have to master, but it shapes you ever so slightly. I'm not saying you need to develop the culture of the style you study, but one should take away something more than just learning how to fight.

I consider army training a martial art. Not only do they teach new recruits fighting skills, but also the core values of what it means to be in the Marines, SEALS, and other branches. One example that I think everyone has heard is to never leave a fallen man behind. In the end the members of our elite fighting forces take away more than just fighting skills.

So long story short, show me a boxing gym that has a set of philosophies and beliefs and I'll call it a martial art. Show me a karate dojo that doesn't have anything behind it and I'll call it a fighting style. The point is, regardless of how you define a martial art, there will always be exceptions to the rule.

[bushido_man96]

Muay Thai does have a traditional background to it that does include forms.

all of which are pretty much extinct now. muay boran is an attempt to try and recreate what's left of the various styles.

Modern Muay Thai that we see today (the sport aspect of it) has been derived from traditional Muay Thai. If the Muay Thai practioners of the past did not perserved their forms to perfection, do you think that the sport Muay Thai would be what it is today?

yes, they would have.

1. as stated earlier, the forms are now pretty much extinct.

2. muay thai was created to GET AWAY from traditional stuff - many of the techniques were too hard to pull off in fights and were considered useless.

I would add, that this movement by Muay Thai is very similar to what Jigoro Kano did when he stripped down traditional Juijitsu to create Judo.

[bushido_man96]

I consider army training a martial art. Not only do they teach new recruits fighting skills, but also the core values of what it means to be in the Marines, SEALS, and other branches. One example that I think everyone has heard is to never leave a fallen man behind. In the end the members of our elite fighting forces take away more than just fighting skills.

I agree with you here. In the armed forces, you are at the epitome of learning about combat, fighting, surviving, and sacrifice. No arguement here.

So long story short, show me a boxing gym that has a set of philosophies and beliefs and I'll call it a martial art. Show me a karate dojo that doesn't have anything behind it and I'll call it a fighting style. The point is, regardless of how you define a martial art, there will always be exceptions to the rule.

I think that boxing, Thai boxing, etc, will produce a set of beliefs and philosophies in each of its individuals, it is just a different set than those that are laid out previously by the Eastern martial arts/fighting styles. Watch The Contender. Listen to how they talk about "respect for the sport," and "bringing the best they can to the sport," and other such statements. It is there; you just have to look deeper for it.

[ps1]

So long story short, show me a boxing gym that has a set of philosophies and beliefs and I'll call it a martial art. Show me a karate dojo that doesn't have anything behind it and I'll call it a fighting style. The point is, regardless of how you define a martial art, there will always be exceptions to the rule.

I think that boxing, Thai boxing, etc, will produce a set of beliefs and philosophies in each of its individuals, it is just a different set than those that are laid out previously by the Eastern martial arts/fighting styles. Watch The Contender. Listen to how they talk about "respect for the sport," and "bringing the best they can to the sport," and other such statements. It is there; you just have to look deeper for it.

I think that talking about respect for the sport is a selfish type of thing. They respect it because they are part of it. Many martial art schools teach about respect for things and people simply because respect is the proper thing to do.

I'm not saying that teaching about respect is something that is required. Afterall, both boxing and martial arts have their fair share of jerks. I think being respectful is something that is developed personally and can only be talked about otherwise. Long story short, it's a process of life that no sport/ martial art alone can develop.

[bushido_man96]

I'm not saying that teaching about respect is something that is required. Afterall, both boxing and martial arts have their fair share of jerks. I think being respectful is something that is developed personally and can only be talked about otherwise. Long story short, it's a process of life that no sport/ martial art alone can develop.

I agree with this concept as well. I don't feel that it is the responsibility of a fighting style to teach these things...I feel that this responsibility belongs to peers, parents, guardians, etc.

The point I was making was in relation to a previous point about a style/art teaching culture or ideals, and I feel that in many activities one can receive such things as discipline, focus, etc.

[Oli]

True, i have never used a move that i've learned for a kata during Kumite. I've never caught someones heel with my one hand and struck it with the other like in Seiunchin and i've never thrown someone they way you would in Empi. But while i haven't taken the specific moves into Kumite, there are other things i have taken. Through learning Kata, i've gained a better understanding of my stances, i've learned how to move my body better, developing flow and speed. Through learning explosive Kata's, i've gained more power in my techniques, through learning the slower kata's, i've developed timing and movement. And because i practice my Kata endlessly, going over each move time and time again until i can perfect them and get them to the best of my ability, i've improved my coordination, my patience, my stamina, my endurance and my tolerance. And while i can get all these things by working on my Kumite endlessly, it's nice to have more than one way of getting the same goal.

[ryukyuboy]

If kata, forms, patterns, whatever you want to call them, are useless, how come the great masters of old practiced them?

[ps1]

I'm not saying that teaching about respect is something that is required. Afterall, both boxing and martial arts have their fair share of jerks. I think being respectful is something that is developed personally and can only be talked about otherwise. Long story short, it's a process of life that no sport/ martial art alone can develop.

I agree with this concept as well. I don't feel that it is the responsibility of a fighting style to teach these things...I feel that this responsibility belongs to peers, parents, guardians, etc.

The point I was making was in relation to a previous point about a style/art teaching culture or ideals, and I feel that in many activities one can receive such things as discipline, focus, etc.

Ok, I'm trackin'

[bushido_man96]

I'm not saying that teaching about respect is something that is required. Afterall, both boxing and martial arts have their fair share of jerks. I think being respectful is something that is developed personally and can only be talked about otherwise. Long story short, it's a process of life that no sport/ martial art alone can develop.

I agree with this concept as well. I don't feel that it is the responsibility of a fighting style to teach these things...I feel that this responsibility belongs to peers, parents, guardians, etc.

The point I was making was in relation to a previous point about a style/art teaching culture or ideals, and I feel that in many activities one can receive such things as discipline, focus, etc.

Ok, I'm trackin'

[Adonis]

How ever some instructures look to help instill quality's or re-inforce the ones that should already be taught into the students.

Many instructors, don't want there people abusing there teachings and misusing it to hurt others.

On that note. If I wanted to look for self enlightment I would go to church I am in Martail art to look to better my self defense abilities and to have fun.