The Uselessness of Kata

[elbows_and_knees]

If all you did was sparing and someone came at you with a knife and was going to kill you you dont kick him in the stumach and call point and he suddenly stops. he goes on and slits your neck. with forms you practice the RIGHT way to execute your techniqe. (comes up at top of head X block force knife out of hand (section of palwge chil-jang)

you're speaking from a point fighting perspective, which is a seperate problem of its own.

kata will not prepare you for a knife attack. that will get you killed. Now, drilling the apps repeatedly can indeed help. But realistically, in a knife situation, you want to run if at all possible.

I REALLY think a lot of the knife defenses people learn these days suck, but I won't touch on that, as it's off topic.

Lastly, there is no single right way. keeping with your example, my front push kick followed by a flurry of strikes and ending with a lock and throw may work for me just as well as your x block, if not better.

[P.A.L]

I REALLY think a lot of the knife defenses people learn these days suck, but I won't touch on that, as it's off topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acZI-6Xnijs

I practice 3 days for 90 min each, it will take me forever to dismount and remount a kata to a point useful for self defense applications,I spend my time only on applications of Naihanchi shodan and sandan as for self defense plus some limited white crane and BJJ techniques, rest of it for me is just a art, i try to perfect my art in performing kata and knowing the bunkai the way i was taught so i can pass it on to the next student. in every single dojo i have been they do a kata and they show some bunkai then you get to practice with a partner , how many times? 3 each? No 10 times each? if you ask me each single application should be practiced for months and tried to be adoped for full contact sparring as well just like a boxer, knowing tons of techniques seems cool but it's not effective same as kata.

[bushido_man96]

I REALLY think a lot of the knife defenses people learn these days suck, but I won't touch on that, as it's off topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acZI-6Xnijs

I practice 3 days for 90 min each, it will take me forever to dismount and remount a kata to a point useful for self defense applications,I spend my time only on applications of Naihanchi shodan and sandan as for self defense plus some limited white crane and BJJ techniques, rest of it for me is just a art, i try to perfect my art in performing kata and knowing the bunkai the way i was taught so i can pass it on to the next student. in every single dojo i have been they do a kata and they show some bunkai then you get to practice with a partner , how many times? 3 each? No 10 times each? if you ask me each single application should be practiced for months and tried to be adoped for full contact sparring as well just like a boxer, knowing tons of techniques seems cool but it's not effective same as kata.

You make some good points, P.A.L. Drilling kata applications is important to do alongside the actual kata.

Nice video, by the way.

[cathal]

kata will not prepare you for a knife attack. that will get you killed. Now, drilling the apps repeatedly can indeed help. But realistically, in a knife situation, you want to run if at all possible.

I definitely disagree with this. Kata are a wealth of information on just about any situation. They give us sounding boards to jump off from in several different techniques. They provide us with a base of movements we can work off of which will get our creative juices flowing so we can figure out the best way to defend ourselves in any particular situation. A punch to the head, a kick to the side, etc are all in there. We get to see in the kata how they moved, how they avoided the attack and how they retaliated. Kata are a set of guidelines during ideal circumstances, ergo we learn from their example.

On the topic of knives you can learn how to defend yourself against a knife and practice the bunkai of that particular section of the kata over and over and over. You and I are essentially learning the same thing, in much the same way.

[mantis.style]

I think the point being made is that blindly practising kata is useless if you don't practice the things derived from the kata. In turn, this brings about the question of the relevance of the kata themselves if you can just record and teach the applications instead.

[elbows_and_knees]

I definitely disagree with this. Kata are a wealth of information on just about any situation. They give us sounding boards to jump off from in several different techniques. They provide us with a base of movements we can work off of which will get our creative juices flowing so we can figure out the best way to defend ourselves in any particular situation. A punch to the head, a kick to the side, etc are all in there. We get to see in the kata how they moved, how they avoided the attack and how they retaliated. Kata are a set of guidelines during ideal circumstances, ergo we learn from their example.

you're very correct - kata have a wealth of information. But theory and application are two different things. You can't do kata for an hour a day then defend against a knife. you will die. You have to apply what you know. That is why drilling and sparring are so benfeicial. As the saying goes, experience is the best teacher. And it's very true. I can tell you what it's like to work in a club and have a bottle of moet swung at you. I can teach ring strategy and tell you what it's like to be in the ring. But until you experience those for yourself, you will never really know what it's like. In the move "The perfect weapon", jeff's teacher told him "I have shown you the dragon, but you have not seen him." fighting is about experience.

On the topic of knives you can learn how to defend yourself against a knife and practice the bunkai of that particular section of the kata over and over and over. You and I are essentially learning the same thing, in much the same way

sure you can. no debate there. My issue is how many people do this effectively when kata is so rampant in schools. when I was in CMA, we had knife defenses, we had self defense drills. But all of it took a back seat to mastering the form. most people I know have had a similar experience. Now, my karate training was different from my japanese teacher because he didn't like the emphasis of kata. However, the american teacher was the same as my cma training was - kata, kata, kata.

If you do drill repeatedly (and I mean repeatedly, not just 10 times, once per class) the great - that's what we need to see more of, IMO.

[cathal]

I see what you're saying and I tend to agree that doing is a much better way of learning. There is only so much one can understand from reading, speaking, or watching something.

Someone must definitely do what it is you're learning in order to have a full appreciation for what it being taught. So on that I wholeheartedly agree. So in going back to the use of kata I also believe that Kata trains us to get the fundamental movement down. Bunaki takes it a step further into the practical application, and then helps us to train for specific eventualities.

[bushido_man96]

sure you can. no debate there. My issue is how many people do this effectively when kata is so rampant in schools. when I was in CMA, we had knife defenses, we had self defense drills. But all of it took a back seat to mastering the form. most people I know have had a similar experience. Now, my karate training was different from my japanese teacher because he didn't like the emphasis of kata. However, the american teacher was the same as my cma training was - kata, kata, kata.

If you do drill repeatedly (and I mean repeatedly, not just 10 times, once per class) the great - that's what we need to see more of, IMO.

I agree that the idea of spending so much time on kata can be counter-productive. I like the idea of drilling applications alongside the pracitice of kata.

[juey palancu]

I think the point being made is that blindly this brings about the question of the relevance of the kata themselves if you can just record and teach the applications instead.

Since katas have the movements and sequences neatly packaged in a time-tested fashion, simply recording applications separately would be most inefficient. Making just a list would result in an incredibly long list of thing to remember, not to mention that in katas, each movement is related to at least 3-4 movement before and after. The length of the lsit grows exponentially long if you include this.

With that said, I think practicing applications, bunkai, etc is MOST important and it is something that has been lost to many sport dojos and Mcdojos. It becomes a completely different, and much more well-rounded, art if you know and practice bunkai. Karate and other arts subject to 'Mcdojoification' should emulate what judokas and JJ people have done, which is keep applications alive by drilling a LOT.

[mantis.style]

But to practice drills you need to derive them from the katas in the first place and if you are going to do this, then why not just teach the derived drills instead of focussing on the prefection of form?