The Uselessness of Kata

[Jiffy]

That's a really interesting way of looking at it. Keep the traditional, but then for yourself, make it yours.

[bushido_man96]

An interesting thing of note: most of the older kung fu styles didn't have several forms as they do today - they only had a handful. Most of their time was spent perfecting those 1 - 5 or so forms and drilling applications. over time, people picked up forms from cross training in other styles and added them to the curriculum, tried to preserve dying styles, etc. eventually leading up to the great numbers of forms that styles have today. I wonder if karate was the same way.

When I was training karate, I trained in two schools simultaneously. One was commercial. One was with a japanese friend of mine who had several students. My friend and his teacher both favored forms and drilling as opposed to fighting, although they knew the kata and were very good at them. consequently, He only taught two kata - taikyoku shodan and sanchin. The rest of our time was spent drilling and sparring. Since I was also training elsewhere, he would help me with those kata if I asked him, but he never taught them to any of us.

You raise a good point here, elbows_and_knees. When I was in the ATA, I can remember the history behind GM H.U. Lee creating his new forms. They are very nice forms, and they are fun to do, and are great for building technique. However, even with the forms system that I use now, it seems that forms are made, designed, or borrowed and used just to make a curriculum, i.e., to have something to do at testing. You test, and then learn a new form, and test again. To me, this is stagnate training. We need to have a reason for the forms, or if there is no reason, we need to apply other things in the testings, like drilling, more self-defense, and perhaps some more spontaneous activities of defense.

Now, don't get me wrong, I enjoy doing forms, even if I don't know applications to them. I still like to do them, and they can be a measuring stick for skill development. However, I feel that application drilling is just as important as well. I also feel that even if forms are newly designed, you can still find applicable techniques and drills within them. They just need to be taught and drilled.

[username8517]

Since I have already went off on my tangent about creativity vs. traditionalism in kata, I figured I might as well address the "uselessness of kata". As I have stated in my last post I find that kata is very useful for martial arts.

Kata is a tool that martial arts utilizes for practice and repititon, creating reflex memory while breaking up the monotomy of doing basic drills. Each kata contains various blocks, strikes, etc. By repeatedly performing kata, you are effectively repeating blocking and striking drills.

Think about your first form or two. Pretty basic, huh? But I'd be willing to bet that they contained at least one, if not multiple, of the following: chest block, head block, lower block, a couple different types of punches (head, chest, reverse, etc), maybe a kick or two, but also your different stances as well. The moves you would be most likely to utilize should you ever need to. By repeatedly practing said kata(s) you are effectively teaching your body to move without thinking. This is why as your progress in rank you still perform the basic kata.

Think of martial arts as a house you're building. You want to have a stable solid foundation and make sure that foundation is secure before you place anything on top of it. I could easily place a house on the sands of a beach, but one big rainstorm or wave and my house is halfway out into the ocean. By building a solid concrete foundation, we are establishing the knowledge and tools to added more advanced weapons to our repitoire.

Now there are some arguements about not performing kata so I will try my best to generalize answers to them.

Kata is pointless because you can spend the time doing drills up and down the floor instead if you're so concerned with basics.

This is true. You can spend the time you would normally allot to kata doing drills up and down the dojo floor. However, let me ask you this, what do you think is going to be more appealing to the masses, working on going up and down the dojo floor for 45 minutes working on basics or working through a couple different katas for 45 minutes? Granted there will be those that would rather spend the 45 minutes of the class drilling basics, I conceded that, but I have noticed a significantly larger portion of the class I teach perfers working on kata as opposed to lining up and doing drills. I'm sure everyone who teaches kata has heard something similar to "Can we work on Pinan Sandan?" when they're still struggling on Pinan Nidan. In my personal experience this is much more prevalent than hearing students say, "Can we line up and run through basics." Kata not only provides a training tool for the practice of basics, but it also gives students something to strive for down the road.

Kata is not practical. You won't ever fight like that

Once again, this is true. I have never seen a fight go anything like kata. The stances utilized in kata are there not only for balance, but to build muscle mass. Granted, you could add leg strength training to your basics if your merely going up and down the dojo floor, but as I mentioned before, how many people do you think will actually look forward to that? Furthermore, stances in martial arts are transitional. You will never see me fight an entire match in a zenkusu dachi stance. I'll drop down into one if I'm executing a gedan uke, but I will not stay in that position. Once the move is done, there is no need to continue the stance. It's just wasting energy you'll need to conserve in a fight. On top of that if I cannot hold a zenkusu dachi stance than when I might actually need drop into one in the heat of the moment I'll be at a loss if I take a kick to the side of the leg. My leg will probably buckle and give out on me. Remember that whole sand versus concrete example I mentioned above?

Kata is just there for testing purposes.

To an extent, yes. Kata is a way of measuring someone's ability and skill before letting them advance to more important things. Would you go to a heart surgeon who couldn't hold the scalpel the proper way or a dentist would decided he didn't like anestetics? Of course not. Kata is there for the same reason--as a benchmark. By establishing benchmarks you know what the student should know and what they should be capable of doing.

But there's no meaning behind the moves. The bunkai is totally worthless--no one would attack you that way.

Any issues with a kata's bunkai should be address with the instructor directly. While I can tell you there are some things that are done in different schools and branches of kata that completely boggles my mind, such as not looking before turning (seriously, how do you know what kind of block or strike you're going to do without looking first? Without looking you have no knowledge of the events that are occuring and what you need to do to compensate. You wouldn't buy lumber to build a cabinet and then close your eyes after you fire up the powersaw would you?--sorry ending rant ). Any and all questions about bunkai should be able to be answered by your instructor. If your instructor is not aware of the proper bunkai, I would start to question what the purpose of the moves are because without purpose there is not meaning. Creating your own bunkai might even be acceptable, but I would run it past your own instructor first. But the point is that there needs to be something.

Furthermore, it's called martial arts for a reason. All arts are subjective to personal interpretation and expression. As I address in my last post on this thread, what I may see as a block you may see as a throw. This is because of the system that makes it an "art". While there are the traditional forms of art (expressionism, abstract, surrealism, etc), I would like to focus on the language arts as I think it provides the prime example for bunkai interpretation. Using the english language, I can use the word "punch" in three different ways off the top of my head. As a verb--John please punch the heavy bag. As a noun--Please pass the punch. And as an adjective--Wow, that really packs a punch. Martial arts are the same way. When looking at bunkai, just because you step forward and execute a punching maneuver doesn't mean that it has to be a punch, it could be part of a throw. The bunkai for each move will be slightly different for each person, but don't be afraid to question if you don't understand.

There are numerous other arguments I could post and retort, but I believe you get my point. Kata is very useful tool that I recommend everyone utilize. Key word being tool. Look at your daily routine you do. Unless you've only wore sandales or velcro shoes your entire life, you had to learn how to tie your laces at some point. You were probably given a rhyme or saying to help you remember what steps to do when. That rhyme or saying was a tool to help you learn how to tie your shoes. Much to the way kata is a tool to help you learn the proper fundamentals.

[Jiffy]

Bearich, a fantastic post!

You summed up Kata completely! If anyone doubts Kata after reading your post, I seriously doubt they will ever understand, and should probably stop trying.

[Syphax]

Excellent Bearich! I could not agree with you more!

[bushido_man96]

You make some good points, bearich. I agree that kata is one of many tools that the martial arts have at their disposal.

Here is an order that I feel should be considered for martial arts training:

Basics should lead to forms--forms should lead to bunkai, and bunkai should lead to kata-based sparring, or some other form of resisting self-defense application.

[Jiffy]

Not bad Bushido.

The only addition I would make is

kata-based sparring should lead to free sparing.

[elbows_and_knees]

drilling up and down the floor? no. drilling with a partner? yes. The live feedback and added sponteneity will help overcome boredom.

However, I don't disagree that kata can have its uses.

[Jiffy]

Yes, but drilling of any kind can be come boring... it's not the activity that makes it boring, it's the repetition of it. The more you can vary it, the less boring it will be.

[Jiffy]

BTW - Elbows and Knees, while BJJ and MT may work on nearly all partner work, Karate, Tae Kwon Do and many similar arts don't work this way.

I'm not saying either way is better, just explaining that the training methods are different. I have trained in styles that train both ways and I like various parts of each way.