The Uselessness of Kata

[cathal]

Here's a jump back to the original post: I don't think kata training is useless; I think that it has stagnated. By being so caught up in the 'tradition' of a thing, we don't ever think in our wildest dreams that we should modify it. There are so many ways to use forms in training, if we are willing to do them.

You can set a timer for 2 minute rounds, and crank out forms, like shadow-boxing. Hard and fast, like you were fighting.

You can slow them down, and spend 5 minutes time on a form, and really burn up the legs.

You can set the timer for 15 minutes, and get more of an aerobic workout. And these are just physical fitness aspects.

There is the bunkai training. You can have preset techniques, or you can improvise.

There is also kata-based sparring that you can do. I am not an expert in this field, however, I am beginning to research it, and I can see its worth. It forces you to think freely, and see what happens once the opponent begins to resist, not unlike what judokas and BJJ practitioners experience.

There are many ways that forms training can benefit us, we just have to be willing to step outside the box and utilize them. Are there other methods of training these ideas? Sure there are. But hey, variety is the spice of life!

I agree with this completely.

[Syphax]

I agree with Bushidoman in the sense that there are many ways that we can be creative with our forms. All I have to add is that, whatever you do, make sure you remember the tradition and heritage of your art and the forms you practice. As long as you can keep that in mind, I say let loose the training ideas.

[Jiffy]

That sounds fair to me. So many people are too concenred with the tradition of the art that they are not prepared to expirment. Conversly, there are just as many that modify the kata so much that they loose it's point and it's tradition.

Learn to experiement with Kata without compramising it's integrity.

[bushido_man96]

That sounds fair to me. So many people are too concenred with the tradition of the art that they are not prepared to expirment. Conversly, there are just as many that modify the kata so much that they loose it's point and it's tradition.

Learn to experiement with Kata without compramising it's integrity.

This is a good point. To it, I would like to add: if effectiveness is comprimised, then so is the integrity, to an extent. Now, there are some things that we are going to do that are ineffective, but we do them just because they are fun. I am one of these people. However, we should always keep effectivness in mind.

[username8517]

I agree with Bushidoman in the sense that there are many ways that we can be creative with our forms. All I have to add is that, whatever you do, make sure you remember the tradition and heritage of your art and the forms you practice. As long as you can keep that in mind, I say let loose the training ideas.

Now I'm not going to go into whether I believe katas are useful or not (although I belive they are highly useful), but I would like to comment on this current tangent of creativity vs. traditionism of katas.

In Shogen-Ryu, there exists this philosophy on kata (and pardon the paraphrasing as I don't remember the exact wording)--There are two ways to do kata; the correct way and your way.

What this means is there is the traditional way of doing kata, with each move having a preset bunkai and perfect stance for each move. This traditional method is what you are taught when you learn a kata and what you must teach those below you. When tested or merely running through the kata in front of an instructor, you always use the traditonal version.

"Your way" of doing kata is where the flexibility starts to come in. You would use this version when you were not teaching or being taught--basically a light or informal work out. Everyone can create or envision different bunkai for each move. We're all gifted with unique brains each with their own thought process. Everyone will look at things in a slightly different manner. What might be a turn and block to one person can be viewed as a throw to another. And what specific bunkai is will determine how you will perform diffenent actions in the kata (i.e.--more aggessive or defensive). This also allows those with physical problems to compensate for their aliments in some slight manner.

The key behind this is what works for me may not work for you, but that's for you to discover. This is why the traditional method is always taught and practiced.

If I go and teach "my" version of a kata to someone and say that block number X is actually the beginning of a throw, then that sets it in the mind of my student that it's a throw. Then say five years down the line, my student proceeds to teach the kata to someone else and he says it's a throw because that's the bunkai taught to him, then student C will learn it as a throw as well. But wouldn't you know it, it turns out student C's body structure is different from mine and doesn't have the same effectiveness for him, then he/she might alter the footwork accordingly. As these changes slowly take place over time, the kata will look different from school to school, even within the same system as each person is putting their own little touch here and there on the kata to suit their individual body.

By sticking to the traditional method, it creates a template for every student to learn and pass on. Yes you can get creative and work in applications and multiple bunkai for each move, but by having this template is allows you to have a standard gauge for measurement. Being in the USA, I can walk into a Shogen-Ryu dojo in Canada, Japan, or where ever and know what each kata should look like and what the bunkai behind it is. I won't have to work with someone and say, "well why were you taught this was a throw/block/punch/whatever?" I can merely pick out the mistakes and work with that student accordingly.

[Rick_72]

Now I'm not going to go into whether I believe katas are useful or not (although I belive they are highly useful), but I would like to comment on this current tangent of creativity vs. traditionism of katas.

In Shogen-Ryu, there exists this philosophy on kata (and pardon the paraphrasing as I don't remember the exact wording)--There are two ways to do kata; the correct way and your way.

What this means is there is the traditional way of doing kata, with each move having a preset bunkai and perfect stance for each move. This traditional method is what you are taught when you learn a kata and what you must teach those below you. When tested or merely running through the kata in front of an instructor, you always use the traditonal version.

"Your way" of doing kata is where the flexibility starts to come in. You would use this version when you were not teaching or being taught--basically a light or informal work out. Everyone can create or envision different bunkai for each move. We're all gifted with unique brains each with their own thought process. Everyone will look at things in a slightly different manner. What might be a turn and block to one person can be viewed as a throw to another. And what specific bunkai is will determine how you will perform diffenent actions in the kata (i.e.--more aggessive or defensive). This also allows those with physical problems to compensate for their aliments in some slight manner.

The key behind this is what works for me may not work for you, but that's for you to discover. This is why the traditional method is always taught and practiced.

If I go and teach "my" version of a kata to someone and say that block number X is actually the beginning of a throw, then that sets it in the mind of my student that it's a throw. Then say five years down the line, my student proceeds to teach the kata to someone else and he says it's a throw because that's the bunkai taught to him, then student C will learn it as a throw as well. But wouldn't you know it, it turns out student C's body structure is different from mine and doesn't have the same effectiveness for him, then he/she might alter the footwork accordingly. As these changes slowly take place over time, the kata will look different from school to school, even within the same system as each person is putting their own little touch here and there on the kata to suit their individual body.

By sticking to the traditional method, it creates a template for every student to learn and pass on. Yes you can get creative and work in applications and multiple bunkai for each move, but by having this template is allows you to have a standard gauge for measurement. Being in the USA, I can walk into a Shogen-Ryu dojo in Canada, Japan, or where ever and know what each kata should look like and what the bunkai behind it is. I won't have to work with someone and say, "well why were you taught this was a throw/block/punch/whatever?" I can merely pick out the mistakes and work with that student accordingly.

I really like the mindset behind that.

[Syphax]

Now I'm not going to go into whether I believe katas are useful or not (although I belive they are highly useful), but I would like to comment on this current tangent of creativity vs. traditionism of katas.

In Shogen-Ryu, there exists this philosophy on kata (and pardon the paraphrasing as I don't remember the exact wording)--There are two ways to do kata; the correct way and your way.

What this means is there is the traditional way of doing kata, with each move having a preset bunkai and perfect stance for each move. This traditional method is what you are taught when you learn a kata and what you must teach those below you. When tested or merely running through the kata in front of an instructor, you always use the traditonal version.

"Your way" of doing kata is where the flexibility starts to come in. You would use this version when you were not teaching or being taught--basically a light or informal work out. Everyone can create or envision different bunkai for each move. We're all gifted with unique brains each with their own thought process. Everyone will look at things in a slightly different manner. What might be a turn and block to one person can be viewed as a throw to another. And what specific bunkai is will determine how you will perform diffenent actions in the kata (i.e.--more aggessive or defensive). This also allows those with physical problems to compensate for their aliments in some slight manner.

The key behind this is what works for me may not work for you, but that's for you to discover. This is why the traditional method is always taught and practiced.

If I go and teach "my" version of a kata to someone and say that block number X is actually the beginning of a throw, then that sets it in the mind of my student that it's a throw. Then say five years down the line, my student proceeds to teach the kata to someone else and he says it's a throw because that's the bunkai taught to him, then student C will learn it as a throw as well. But wouldn't you know it, it turns out student C's body structure is different from mine and doesn't have the same effectiveness for him, then he/she might alter the footwork accordingly. As these changes slowly take place over time, the kata will look different from school to school, even within the same system as each person is putting their own little touch here and there on the kata to suit their individual body.

By sticking to the traditional method, it creates a template for every student to learn and pass on. Yes you can get creative and work in applications and multiple bunkai for each move, but by having this template is allows you to have a standard gauge for measurement. Being in the USA, I can walk into a Shogen-Ryu dojo in Canada, Japan, or where ever and know what each kata should look like and what the bunkai behind it is. I won't have to work with someone and say, "well why were you taught this was a throw/block/punch/whatever?" I can merely pick out the mistakes and work with that student accordingly.

I really like the mindset behind that.

Interesting viewpoint. I would tend to agree with you.

[bushido_man96]

Good post, bearich.

[karateone]

I don't particularly like kata but it is definitly useful. you can't just look at the moves you have to look deeper and see the self-defense techniques inside each kata. this will help in sparring and on the street. i know around here in tournaments, whoever wins kata usually wins sparring.

[elbows_and_knees]

I agree with Bushidoman in the sense that there are many ways that we can be creative with our forms. All I have to add is that, whatever you do, make sure you remember the tradition and heritage of your art and the forms you practice. As long as you can keep that in mind, I say let loose the training ideas.

An interesting thing of note: most of the older kung fu styles didn't have several forms as they do today - they only had a handful. Most of their time was spent perfecting those 1 - 5 or so forms and drilling applications. over time, people picked up forms from cross training in other styles and added them to the curriculum, tried to preserve dying styles, etc. eventually leading up to the great numbers of forms that styles have today. I wonder if karate was the same way.

When I was training karate, I trained in two schools simultaneously. One was commercial. One was with a japanese friend of mine who had several students. My friend and his teacher both favored forms and drilling as opposed to fighting, although they knew the kata and were very good at them. consequently, He only taught two kata - taikyoku shodan and sanchin. The rest of our time was spent drilling and sparring. Since I was also training elsewhere, he would help me with those kata if I asked him, but he never taught them to any of us.