The Uselessness of Kata

[DokterVet]

The conditioning video with the breaking was very impressive (although I don't buy that "one hit kill" stuff for a second. We simply would have seen deaths in some form of competition by now if that were true). Still, impressive stuff.

I find it so hard to believe that any pressure point (including eyes throat groin) when struck correctly will lead to no real affect!

I actually agree with you here. Hopefully I can better explain my position: I agree with you that if one were to land, for example, a properly executed eye gauge from a conditioned hand, it would do a substantial amount of damage, and potentially end the fight. However, and this brings us back to the topic of the thread, I don't believe that training these techniques in kata is going to help one to be able to land the technique in live combat. Therefore, I would rather train less deadly techniques in 'live,' resistant training than train comparably deadlier techniques in a predetermined pattern. I hope that makes my point clear. I think this might be kind of getting at what I'm trying to say:

But if I started striking my training partner with my well conditioned ungloved hands, pushing my fingers into his eyes, striking his neck with shuto (knife hand) etc, trying to break his neck, biting, stamping on joints/weak spots etc.

Ideally, you would have a training partner who allows you to practice these dangerous techniques on him full-contact in sparring (with movement, reaction, intent, aliveness). However, such a partner does not exist, therefore one can only train dangerous techniques in other ways (like kata).

Many people, even for self-defence purposes, address this problem by focusing only on techniques that can be practiced with full resistance. The idea is that the skill attained through training with a moving, reacting, competing opponent is so much greater (and more applicable to live combat) than that achieved through other methods (like kata), that the "less deadly" techniques effectively become more deadly because they will be more likely to be successfully applied than the "deadly techniques" trained only in kata.

I'm sure there are other solutions (ie practicing against a person wearing protective body armour). I just don't believe kata is a good solution to the problem, because it ignores the movement and aliveness of a real encounter.

I also agree with you that kata is not 100% useless. I would call it "unneccessary" but not useless. It is excersize and contains some techniques which the practitioner might be able to apply if he supplements his kata training with working with a live, resisting partner. It is especially good for older people whose bodies can't handle being hit or tossed around very much. Recently I had a training partner have to stop training because he has naturally weak joints and grappling was too hard on his body. Kata might be a good alternative for someone like him. However, in general I believe there are many more useful ways to spend your training time than kata.

I trained in Wado Kai Karate for 8 years and earned the rank Shodan. Now I wish I had spent the time I invested doing kata on grappling or sparring. I just don't feel that the kata increased my martial ability at all, deadly techniques or not. Your experience might be different. Like you, I'm not interested in a "style vs. style" debate, but I think a "training method vs. training method technique" is helpful regardless of the "style" of the techniques. I'm glad to read you have some experience in grappling. In addition to being useful, it's really fun, (but tiring).

[bushido_man96]

You bring up some good points, DokterVet. I think if you look into some of Iain Abernethey's books on applied karate, and bunkai jitsu, you might see what you are kind of looking for. He has several levels of bunkai training, with the last called "kata based sparring," which is the live resistance that you are talking about.

[GKRDan]

I totally agree with your post, I think we have more in common than I realised. I agree that as a young, fit, flexible man, kata won't play as vital a part in my life/training until I start getting older. I believe then, that my mobility etc will be superior to most older people who do not train in kata/patterns/forms. I see so many elderly people struggling, but then you look at that guy in that clip! I suppose I don't need to try and defend 'pressure points' as such, because they are used all the time in the ring anyway. Even all the locks/holds etc. I personally train in karate-do for the mental benefits it offers me, which are great and are the best self defence in thierself. I also concentrate quite heavily on pressure testing, confrontational scenarios etc. For self defence only, I read and study alot of Geoff Thompson's books that help me also. He really knows what he's talking about, when it comes to defending yourself. Why don't you check him out?(Unless you have already)

[DokterVet]

I'll look into both of your suggestions, GKRDan and bushido_man96. I'm curious about kata-based sparring.

Another problem I have with kata is that I always found them to be extremely stylized and difficult to apply to real situations. They were supposedly full of intricacies and hidden techniques, but whenever I was shown one, or tried to figure one out, my thoughts were always, "yeah, I guess that kinda works..a little. Although ____ would probably work better."

I thought the Ashihara system was a better idea than learning traditional katas that had been stylized over the years. Are you familiar with Ashihara Karate? The system threw out the old katas and created all new ones without any 'hidden' techniques or obscure stances. All of the techniques have specific, known applications.

[patusai]

I do also train against a resisting partner, quite often actually! I know some good ground work, I also know how tiring it is! But if I started striking my training partner with my well conditioned ungloved hands, pushing my fingers into his eyes, striking his neck with shuto (knife hand) etc, trying to break his neck, biting, stamping on joints/weak spots etc. This would greatly improve my chances of overcoming his cage/ring fighting only techniques. If you liked the last clip, watch this. Look how kata keeps the old guy (74) going and how well he moves, and watch the sparring, of which traditional karate was supposed to be practiced as much as kata. http://youtube.com/watch?v=mGIHXVeL24o&search=uechi%20ryu

Wow

[GKRDan]

They were supposedly full of intricacies and hidden techniques, but whenever I was shown one, or tried to figure one out, my thoughts were always, "yeah, I guess that kinda works..a little. Although ____ would probably work better."

I see now, to understand kata, you need to study them for a long time, then they eventually make more and more sense over time. Every kata technique has bunkai. Alot of the 'obscure' stances and techniques are exaggerated in kata, so as to make sure they are definately perfomed with good technique in real life when mental barriers may prevail. It also ingrains the karate into your mind deeper than if practiced with half hearted attempts. Although I do admit there are some kata techniques that even I find a little obscure, but then again, I am still learning, and I have thought this before, about a previous kata that I now have nearly full understanding. You'll just have to trust me, I have been almost constantly revealing things in kata, and I've been training in karate for 11 years! I do however believe that there are alot of karate schools that don't concentrate on the one step sparring aspect of the art enough. Basic technique/conditioning/bagwork/grappling can also be left behind in favour of kata practice. But not all schools are not like this, it's up to the martial artist what works best for them, no style is superior to another.

[bushido_man96]

But did he push his eyes as far as he could into the back of his skull and hold them there? No? I completely understand where you are coming from and I respect your knowledge as a fellow martial artist.

Basically, this all started from someone saying kata is 'useless' for kumite. The fact is that kata cannot be 100% useless, as it strengthens your body and speeds up your reactions to some extent. So, if it practiced enough, there will obviously be 'some' benefit relating to competition/one's physique. Although other methods of training for competition fighting might prove more productive.

I personally focus quite heavily on full speed one step sparring and grappling in my training along with my karate. I practice tameshiwari (breaking) and conditioning quite heavily, and I find it so hard to believe that any pressure point (including eyes throat groin) when struck correctly will lead to no real affect! Even though I have had first hand experience that reassures me that these weak spots are extremely sensitive, and such techniques 'do hold water'!

Look, all I'm trying to say is that I'm growing sick of all the 'karate vs Gracie Jiu Jitsu'/'Thai boxing vs karate' clips claiming that karate is useless. Well, as soon as you put boundaries on it, it is! Karate wasn't meant for competition, it's a killing art without weapons. Thats not to say the other arts aren't, because they are too!

But I guess most MMA guys don't condition as much without gloves on as these guys! http://youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc&mode=related&search=uechi%20ryu

Wow!! There is defenitely something not right about the shape of his hand and foot, after all of that training. I don't like arthritis, so I think I will avoid that stuff!

[bushido_man96]

I'll look into both of your suggestions, GKRDan and bushido_man96. I'm curious about kata-based sparring.

Another problem I have with kata is that I always found them to be extremely stylized and difficult to apply to real situations. They were supposedly full of intricacies and hidden techniques, but whenever I was shown one, or tried to figure one out, my thoughts were always, "yeah, I guess that kinda works..a little. Although ____ would probably work better."

I thought the Ashihara system was a better idea than learning traditional katas that had been stylized over the years. Are you familiar with Ashihara Karate? The system threw out the old katas and created all new ones without any 'hidden' techniques or obscure stances. All of the techniques have specific, known applications.

You are correct in stating that there are some things that work better for self-defense applications than some of those found in forms. However, it is like anything, there are basics, and then advanced training. When you take the form, and practice it, and keep in mind how things can be tweaked a little to make it applicable, this is the first step to facilitating your thinking of how to do it even better later on. It is kind of like learning math, you have to learn to add before you can do all of the hard stuff, like logarithms and such.

[bushido_man96]

I do also train against a resisting partner, quite often actually! I know some good ground work, I also know how tiring it is! But if I started striking my training partner with my well conditioned ungloved hands, pushing my fingers into his eyes, striking his neck with shuto (knife hand) etc, trying to break his neck, biting, stamping on joints/weak spots etc. This would greatly improve my chances of overcoming his cage/ring fighting only techniques. If you liked the last clip, watch this. Look how kata keeps the old guy (74) going and how well he moves, and watch the sparring, of which traditional karate was supposed to be practiced as much as kata. http://youtube.com/watch?v=mGIHXVeL24o&search=uechi%20ryu

That old guy does move well! And you say he is 74?! He doesn't look it!

[P.A.L]

I'll look into both of your suggestions, GKRDan and bushido_man96. I'm curious about kata-based sparring.

Another problem I have with kata is that I always found them to be extremely stylized and difficult to apply to real situations. They were supposedly full of intricacies and hidden techniques, but whenever I was shown one, or tried to figure one out, my thoughts were always, "yeah, I guess that kinda works..a little. Although ____ would probably work better."

I thought the Ashihara system was a better idea than learning traditional katas that had been stylized over the years. Are you familiar with Ashihara Karate? The system threw out the old katas and created all new ones without any 'hidden' techniques or obscure stances. All of the techniques have specific, known applications.

i read your posts and although i practice katas everyday, i think your points is valid for any kind of fight between two trained persons,if it happens to me ,i am not gonna go for my kata traps , i switch to boxing and jujutsu and white crane eye hitting techniques, i would use kata traps against somebody who throws blind punches or hey makers though,