The Uselessness of Kata

[Shui Tora]

Perosnally (and you may disagree with me) Kata were brought in to teach students techniques and how to use your body, your hands etc. Think of it this way; Kihon (from Shotokan) is the very basic of kata, and I have seen novice students perfrom it well, but you ask them to perfrom another kata, and they have no clue.

However, you teach them how any other kata goes, and then they'll understand it! Of course by teaching it to them, but from the basics of a kata (kihon) they already know how any other kata should go.

Saying that kata is usless is like saying that a black belt isn't a black belt. I've heard of people arguing about whether kata is good or not, and from my view without kata, where would karate be? Think about it- you are taught techniques after techniques, what about timing and distance etc, well from kata we can derive Bunkai, and from Bunkai we can derive self-defence.

Kata's are good for understanding how to use self-defence techniques. I (think) that what you are trying tosay is that how can we use the whole kata for self-defence...? Well, you dont. But any kata links many scenairo's together, and so you may only need to use a certain number... But getting back to self-defence, you MUST remember that they used these in the Edo period of Japan.... And by practicing these, you up-hold the tradition of karate...

Why take up a MA when you say that there is no point of Kata?

Am I scenical in thinking that?

[tke010]

I love Martial Arts - Shaolin Kempo!!!!!!

I enjoy Kata!

kata is not as simple as it seems. Kata is very, very deep!

At first, you just go through the motions trying to learn the moves of the kata.

Then you analyze the kata more and see differnt strikes that were not obvious.

Then you teach it to someone else.

As you explain a move or 2, a new explanation of that moves appears (example: its not really a srike, but a throw) you then explain both ways.

Then you discuss your new observation with the balck belts\higher rank students and practice the move to see if it would work or not.

you may need to modify the move to make it work for you (differnt body types).

kata breakdown with different training partners has helped me identify pressure points, throws, chin-nas that were not initially obvious. maybe some of these explanations were not the greatest techniques, but they caused me to re-think what i am doing (what else can this move be)

quick example, 1 pinon in Shaolin Kempo is not blocks and punches, its all throws.

look at the first kata you have, analyze the blocks, the punches, and the turns. how can this form become all throws,think about it....

[elbows_and_knees]

look at the first kata you have, analyze the blocks, the punches, and the turns. how can this form become all throws,think about it....

and therein lies the uselessness. thinking about what you said, I'm able to see a series of throws, the first being ippon seionage. BUT, the hands are not correct, and the footwork isn't exact, meaning that you would have to play with it in order to get it right. you are reinventing the wheel. Why? Also, seeing it in the kata is not helping you perfect it. You still need to drill it and work it in randori. you save yourself a lot of time and needless experimentation by learning ippon seionage, drilling it repeatedly and working it into sparring.

[tke010]

and therein lies the uselessness. thinking about what you said, I'm able to see a series of throws, the first being ippon seionage. BUT, the hands are not correct, and the footwork isn't exact, meaning that you would have to play with it in order to get it right. you are reinventing the wheel. Why? Also, seeing it in the kata is not helping you perfect it. You still need to drill it and work it in randori. you save yourself a lot of time and needless experimentation by learning ippon seionage, drilling it repeatedly and working it into sparring.

I use kata as a tool to identify different ways in which people can attack you and the technique used to defend against it. Kata sparks thought about a technique that then needs to be trained.

I see what you are saying, but I myself enjoy the experimentation. (makes me think). I jst don't want to lock myself into just 1 way of thinking. sometimes a throw could be better in a situation than strikes.

[patusai]

If the discussion is that kata does not prepare one for actual combat then the only way to truely do this is to do what many old masters did. Actually go out in the street and refine your technique in actual live unrestricted situations. They honed their techniques in real fights (sometimes they actually started fights with specific individuals to test their techniques. Testing techniques in a "sparing" application can be used but I don't believe that it is as effective as an actual streetfight where you may not have the option of stopping and walking away. Some of these masters had to alter their ideas and application after getting hurt in actual combat. Kata is a way of beginning understanding basic ideas and applications (if researched and taught to a deeper level than just knowing the moves). It is a bit easier to have the confidence to use techniques again an opponent in a controlled situation. Taking a page from the old master now adays in this country is not what I am suggesting unless someone wants to chance having an opportunity to polish their techniques further in the jail.

[pers]

Kata is the soul of karate , it is the sylabus of martial art techniques that could be interpreted in diferrent situations ,possibilites on applications are many and masters constantly show us new or diferrent ways of applications that could make a diferrence in a real self defence situation .

Most important thing is understanding and learning them properly in a good school .

In a good school of karate with a good instructer it should not leave any doubt about the importance of kata .

Don't forget that Karate is a martial art NOT a sport !

Competition is only a small part of karate and for the younger people ,

Karate is for life ! and you should improve it by age and ofcourse training !

karate caters for all ages and its vehicle is kata .

Edited September 22, 2006 by pers

[MizuRyu]

Of course, the true original purpose of kata was to preserve the art itself. Being that back in the old days literacy was rare, so people needed a sort of 'encyclopedia' from which to referance techinque, since they couldn't read, they turned it into a dance.

[pers]

If kata looks like dance to you have been missing out ,you may come to change your mind later .

[MizuRyu]

It doesn't look like dance to me, but it was the best word to describe it at the time.

[bushido_man96]

If the discussion is that kata does not prepare one for actual combat then the only way to truely do this is to do what many old masters did. Actually go out in the street and refine your technique in actual live unrestricted situations. They honed their techniques in real fights (sometimes they actually started fights with specific individuals to test their techniques. Testing techniques in a "sparing" application can be used but I don't believe that it is as effective as an actual streetfight where you may not have the option of stopping and walking away. Some of these masters had to alter their ideas and application after getting hurt in actual combat. Kata is a way of beginning understanding basic ideas and applications (if researched and taught to a deeper level than just knowing the moves). It is a bit easier to have the confidence to use techniques again an opponent in a controlled situation. Taking a page from the old master now adays in this country is not what I am suggesting unless someone wants to chance having an opportunity to polish their techniques further in the jail.

Very nice post, patusai. You make a very good point about how the masters tested their techniques. Whether it comes down to fighting or randori, these high speed training/fighting with a resisting partner/opponent is where the true test comes in. However, kata practice in a controlled environment, including bunkai training, is a good way to start training for these advanced situations.