The Uselessness of Kata

[Zorbasan]

i think bunkai is something that you really do have to work out for yourself.

if you are shown set bunkai for each kata, all you are really learning is some self defence techniques.

its fine for people that are just starting with bunkai, but as you move up through the grades let them figure them out themselves rather than telling them what to do. throw thema hint if they are stuck but dont give them theanswer.

a month ago we were told to work on our bunkai for the next grading. while some of the other students had been shown some, i hadnt been.

i worked out quite a few different ones, decided that some worked, some didnt. turns out that the ones i worked out for myself are similar, but not the same, as what the others were shown (for some of them).

if you can show your own bunkai, you are on your way to understanding kata.

[Dragn]

i think bunkai is something that you really do have to work out for yourself.

if you are shown set bunkai for each kata, all you are really learning is some self defence techniques.

its fine for people that are just starting with bunkai, but as you move up through the grades let them figure them out themselves rather than telling them what to do. throw thema hint if they are stuck but dont give them theanswer.

a month ago we were told to work on our bunkai for the next grading. while some of the other students had been shown some, i hadnt been.

i worked out quite a few different ones, decided that some worked, some didnt. turns out that the ones i worked out for myself are similar, but not the same, as what the others were shown (for some of them).

if you can show your own bunkai, you are on your way to understanding kata.

I can see some dangers in this idea.

I've been shown bunkai by instructors, with no real fighting experience, that was just lame, and obviously wouldnt work against a live opponent.

Perhaps it was stuff they made up, or just watered down versions of the real thing. Thats bad enough.

But expecting students to just work things out themselves?

Thats where this whole mess started.

People can come up with all kinds of wonderfull applications for techs that might work in theory, or against willing opponents. But not much of it will stand up in a real fight.

For VERY advanced instructors who have lots of fighting experience and exposure to bunkai from various styles I can see how effective bunkai could be created, but students need to get very exact instruction.

Thats how they are going to learn the concepts of movement and application for their style. From there they need to practise it against an opponent.

Not many students are going to have the knowledge of specific vital points and the precise use of their body tools necessary to make alot of the techneques effective.

Not many instructors do either.

[bushido_man96]

i think bunkai is something that you really do have to work out for yourself.

if you are shown set bunkai for each kata, all you are really learning is some self defence techniques.

its fine for people that are just starting with bunkai, but as you move up through the grades let them figure them out themselves rather than telling them what to do. throw thema hint if they are stuck but dont give them theanswer.

a month ago we were told to work on our bunkai for the next grading. while some of the other students had been shown some, i hadnt been.

i worked out quite a few different ones, decided that some worked, some didnt. turns out that the ones i worked out for myself are similar, but not the same, as what the others were shown (for some of them).

if you can show your own bunkai, you are on your way to understanding kata.

I can see some dangers in this idea.

I've been shown bunkai by instructors, with no real fighting experience, that was just lame, and obviously wouldnt work against a live opponent.

Perhaps it was stuff they made up, or just watered down versions of the real thing. Thats bad enough.

But expecting students to just work things out themselves?

Thats where this whole mess started.

People can come up with all kinds of wonderfull applications for techs that might work in theory, or against willing opponents. But not much of it will stand up in a real fight.

For VERY advanced instructors who have lots of fighting experience and exposure to bunkai from various styles I can see how effective bunkai could be created, but students need to get very exact instruction.

Thats how they are going to learn the concepts of movement and application for their style. From there they need to practise it against an opponent.

Not many students are going to have the knowledge of specific vital points and the precise use of their body tools necessary to make alot of the techneques effective.

Not many instructors do either.

I like both of these posts. I think that it is important to develop bunkai that is specific to each person, as each person is different, and the same thing does not work for everyone.

Drag'n is also right in the sense that it is important to practice your bunkai with a resisting partner, which will help to verify the techniques of the bunkai.

[patusai]

I believe much of it was already watered down when it first entered the states. You had a bunch of guys that had trained for a year or two during the war coming over and teaching it to others. When they didn't have the correct answers for what the bunkai was, they made it up or just said it's secret.

The strangest thing is that anytime I've ever asked anyone who is well trained about bunkai, they've never said, "oh it's secret." I honestly believe that was a cop out for people who didn't know.

Does anyone else agree with this of feel this way?

I agree. Many of the American masters who studied in Japan or Okinawa or ?? after WWII and during Korea left with heafty belt levels that were worn right after returning to the states. They learned to the Shodan or NiDan level (but learned all of the kata or most of it in the system) and came back wearing 6 and 7th dan markings. When they left, a great deal of them were at levels that would indicate that they just learned enough to begin learning and the few times back and forth to Japan or their teacher was not enough, realistically, to benefit them to the level that it should have. My point is that the art is watered down and I agree with you. There has been so much not learned at the higher levels. I am afraid that both of my teachers (both of which learned in Japan and Okinawa, although they seemed knowlegable to me may be at that point too where there is still a great deal that they do not know because they never had the exposure under the appropriate conditions to learn what they could have learned for their rank. It seems that the more I learn the more I wonder and the more that I find that I have yet to learn. That is why I say if one does not understand the reason for kata as a whole or parts of a kata it is not the fault of the kata but rather that it requires that you do what you can to research it more before making changes or thowing it out all together... just my thoughts

[The Kyokushin punisher]

I thought about this topic today for some reason the idea just popped in my head...

When i started training again my footwork was just horrible and i was mad at myself for the sloppyness and i feel Kata is what helped me and my balance so i am greatful for kata.

How , I wonder ... And what do you mean by footwork , is it kumitee footwork or the standard katas footwork ??

For one Balance in kata and sparring..

Transiton from once stance to another..

Kata in Ura..

does that answer yur question?

[y2_sub]

For one Balance in kata and sparring..

Transiton from once stance to another..

Kata in Ura..

does that answer yur question?

Yes it does , thx

Kata in Ura can be very useful to improve balance , focus and physical strength , I agree with you on that point . It can also do some good to your kumite , and of course kata will improve kata (and kata stances) …

However kata will not notably increase fighting skills , in kyokushin , we need endurance , stamina and conditioning along with speed and technique : elements that kata do not provide ..

[patusai]

Nothing is totally useless. This is true in both MA and in life. Something that appears to be uselss usually means that it is not understood well enough. fwiw

[ShotokanTre]

I'm new to both this forum and my dojo, but I think that kata are immportant. You obviously wouldn't fight like that, but that is not really the point of kata. Kata are exagerated forms that were used as a way to pass down a system of knowledge in a peroid and place in time that the people practicing them were illaterate. Kata is inneftive if you try to use it in a fight, just like a screwdriver in ineffective if you are hanging a picture. If you are haning a picture need a hammer, if you're fighting you need fighting techinques. If you're putting shelves together, you need a screw driver, if you are demonstrating technique and working on a practice to improve form, balance, focus, spirit, ki, and endurance, then you need kata.

[bushido_man96]

Kata can be used to improve endurance, if you choose to train it that way. Everyone gets so caught up in doing the kata they way that they are initially taught, that they don't see how many other ways there are to train with it. Katas (or forms) are a training tool.

If you want to train endurance, then do several forms over and over again, for an allotted amount of time. If you fight 2 minute rounds, then burst through either one form, or several forms, all together, without stopping, for the whole 2 minutes. If you fight 3 rounds, then do this 3 times.

If you want to train fighting techniques or combinations, then alter the techniques in the form to reflect the way that you would fight. For example, while fighting, you most likely would not drop into a horse stance and execute punches from the hip. However, you could stand in a more able fighting position, and execute the punches, blocks, kicks, etc. from an arm base position, and practice that way.

There are so many options available to forms training. Remember, they are training tools. They are not so sacred that they cannot be altered to suit your needs for one training session. Remember, open minds!

[ShotokanTre]

Those are wise words bushido man