The Uselessness of Kata

[NightOwl]

As yes, if drunk A beats drunk B then you can attribute it to 'being the better of the worse', however if drunk A beats drunks CDEF afterwards, then a pattern for a knack of fighting emerges no?

sure it does. But in the grand scheme of things, can he REALLY fight, or is he just better than other unskilled drunks. It merely makes him the best of the worst. Similarly, if you have a bunch of guys training, but none of them have ever had a fight, you have fighting that looks sloppy, like the vid I posted. the best of those guys would still be the best of the worst, even though they fought to the death. Since we only hear about these guys second hand, we really can't assume how well they fought.

the windmilling is seen in several longfist type boxing styles. you can see it in northern longfist, choy lay fut, hop gar and various other styles.

Nope, I only learned one and saw roughly 3 (never saw the WC weapons come into play there). What exactly is the purpose of the windmilling? Trapping? I thought that it left your front a little too open for a tackle/ striaght punch....

And no, we cannot say exactly HOW good a of fighters they were based off of the fact that the event occured, but if people were attending it is probally a safe bet that some had combat experiene before. You are correct however, in that more information is needed. Unfortunately, serious historical works on martial arts are not always easy to find...

Hmm, all this and just based off of one point of the argument for kata saying that 'the old masters did it.' Perhaps it is a case where the old isn't better than the new in my opinion. The old masters probally didn't bathe as much either...

[elbows_and_knees]

What exactly is the purpose of the windmilling? Trapping? I thought that it left your front a little too open for a tackle/ striaght punch....

from a pugilist perspective, power. the windmill comes all the way from kansas, giving it plenty of time to build momentum. Combined with full body torque, it can create a pretty powerful strike.

And no, we cannot say exactly HOW good a of fighters they were based off of the fact that the event occured, but if people were attending it is probally a safe bet that some had combat experiene before.

sure. But if you and I fight and eeryone who attended went to either your school or mine (challenge matches were usually not public) then of course, my classmates won't tell anyone I suck, and I assume yours wouldn't say that about you. So then everyone who hears about it hears biased accounts...

[NightOwl]

What exactly is the purpose of the windmilling? Trapping? I thought that it left your front a little too open for a tackle/ striaght punch....

from a pugilist perspective, power. the windmill comes all the way from kansas, giving it plenty of time to build momentum. Combined with full body torque, it can create a pretty powerful strike.

And no, we cannot say exactly HOW good a of fighters they were based off of the fact that the event occured, but if people were attending it is probally a safe bet that some had combat experiene before.

sure. But if you and I fight and eeryone who attended went to either your school or mine (challenge matches were usually not public) then of course, my classmates won't tell anyone I suck, and I assume yours wouldn't say that about you. So then everyone who hears about it hears biased accounts...

ah yes, but the fist shaped indentation in my face would probally show who the winner of said match would be . Again, more documentation needed (and lacking). If I ever have the time, I might try and see what I can pull up (detail-wise) on the subject. Unfortunately, scholars didn't make up for most MAs.

[bushido_man96]

I could easily see a similar scenerio play out in Japan. But with all the kata adding up, it has become a bit of a monster IMO. WingChun only had about 3 (that I knew of ....in the whole 2 1/2 months that I took it ). With some styles of Karate having 60+, I think that that is WAY too much time spent on memorization and not nearly enough on application (the exercise gained from kata could just as easily be gained from another source)

This is the general feeling that I get from my TKD training at this time. We get to class, do basics, then forms, then one-steps, then sparring, if time, and rarely any self-defense. Our students have great technique, and my instructor has plenty of self-defense stories that he shares from time to time. However, it seems like the organization is too curriculum oriented, which does a disservice to the students involved. I agree with elbows_and_knees that we definitely need to have more partner work, drilling, sparring, and self-defense.

[bushido_man96]

Again, more documentation needed (and lacking). If I ever have the time, I might try and see what I can pull up (detail-wise) on the subject. Unfortunately, scholars didn't make up for most MAs.

Although we cannot go back and really get all of the documentation that we want about these challenge matches, we do have the luxury of seeing the MMA competitions in the mainstream, and we can see how good it can be.

[cross]

This is the general feeling that I get from my TKD training at this time. We get to class, do basics, then forms, then one-steps, then sparring, if time, and rarely any self-defense. Our students have great technique, and my instructor has plenty of self-defense stories that he shares from time to time.

Thats a fairly common experience within alot of martial arts schools, including the one i used to train at.

The way i see it, taking your case has an example, when you go there you are learning how to be good at tkd, you are not necissarily learning how to be good at fighting or good at self defence. (some things carry over obviously).

In the majority of cases people can learn a large number of kata and then only every few lessons or at special "self defence" classes that a school holds once every blue moon will you work on the application, and this training rarely goes past doing a technique a few times against a complient "opponent".

However, it seems like the organization is too curriculum oriented, which does a disservice to the students involved

The "techniques over tactics" mentality is fairly common also. Schools teach their students large numbers of techniques and large numbers of kata and promote them for knowing more. Unfortunatly more techniques usually doesnt mean your better at defending yourself, it simply means that your better at tkd (or the art you do).

Very little time is spend on application of technique, pre fight awareness, passive stances, de-escillation techniques, pre-emptive strikes, dealing with the adrenaline dump, dealing with the possibilty of post traumatic stress, how to deal with police if they become involved, the possibility of revenge attacks etc etc.

Often the above is just mentioned briefly in class, but rarely is time set aside to train it.

[bushido_man96]

Nice post, cross. You hit the nail on the head, there. Thanks for that.

[cross]

Nice post, cross. You hit the nail on the head, there. Thanks for that.

Thanks. If you agree with the above i guess that begs the question, why do you continue to train with your school if it doesnt offer those things?

[bushido_man96]

Nice post, cross. You hit the nail on the head, there. Thanks for that.

Thanks. If you agree with the above i guess that begs the question, why do you continue to train with your school if it doesnt offer those things?

The answer: nowhere else to train. Better to have some training, as opposed to no training. I enjoy what I do, I just realize what it lacks as well.

[username8697]

The answer: nowhere else to train. Better to have some training, as opposed to no training. I enjoy what I do, I just realize what it lacks as well.

Ain't that the truth i spent my childhood in plainville and stockton so i know you don't have a whole lot of choice in that area.