The Uselessness of Kata

[24fightingchickens]

I am new here. I have been training in Karate for over 20 years and hold 4th Dan.

...

Again Bruce Lee was right Kata/forms are ineffective

I've been doing Karate for over 25 years and have held a 3rd dan for 12 of them. I've found that the kata are extremely effective forms of training, but like anything else, they are a tool that I use, and if I use them wrong, then I don't get the results I am hoping for.

Kata are an excellent way of performing entertaining and mentally stimulating exercise. Put on my warm ups, jog down to the tennis court at dawn, and do nothing but basic techniques? That's very effective training - up to a point - for particular skills. But over the long haul, it gets very boring, especially as you age. Performing kata, and especially learning kata not from my own system, makes me think while making my heart pound.

I also enjoy the applications of kata. I agree with your points that if you want to free spar effectively, essentially that is one fighting art and kata are another. In fact, the kata are each their own fighting system, though hardly complete, having come from the Chinese quan. However, while free sparring can get you by at long ranges and particularly well if you are the attacker, kata techniques are more useful for unwinding yourself from sticky situations - *if* you take time to practice them right.

I love my kata. I've almost dumped the practice of them before, but I've since picked them back up, having found in them some entertainment value and practicality which makes working out interesting.

[Syphax]

I do very much endorse, for self defence purposes, something I call the 'main artillery'. A smaller set of effective techniques that I train to be as good as they can get, so they can be pulled off as hard and fast as possible.

This is an effective way to train for actually defending oneself. Bottom line is when you are attacked on the street with your life at risks, you will not be using jump-spinning kicks. You won't be moving in deep stances. You use what works: elbows, knees, grappling, low kicks, and more boxing style punches.

Here is where I disagree with the original poster. The Martial Arts, by definition, are an artform. While some of the moves used within katas may not be used in a practical situation (although some are), the Martial Arts are not just about self-defense. To be a true martial artist, you must understand the whole art, including the traditional katas.

Now, if you just want to be able to defend yourself and are not interested in understanding the arts, I suggest kickboxing.

[Jiffy]

Syphax, I couldn't agree more!

[elbows_and_knees]

Put on my warm ups, jog down to the tennis court at dawn, and do nothing but basic techniques? That's very effective training - up to a point - for particular skills. But over the long haul, it gets very boring, especially as you age.

that depends on how it's done. to just practice them on air, sure. but to drill the techniques, both cooperatively and with resistance, to spar with them, to try and spar ONLY using a certain set of techniques... doesn't get boring at all.

However, while free sparring can get you by at long ranges and particularly well if you are the attacker, kata techniques are more useful for unwinding yourself from sticky situations - *if* you take time to practice them right.

I don't think I agree with this one. Why do you think this is true? coming from a muay thai and judo background, I love infighting - you don't have to be at long range at all. IMO, the fight doesn't even begin until you are at that range.

[elbows_and_knees]

Here is where I disagree with the original poster. The Martial Arts, by definition, are an artform. While some of the moves used within katas may not be used in a practical situation (although some are), the Martial Arts are not just about self-defense. To be a true martial artist, you must understand the whole art, including the traditional katas.

here is where I disagree with you. There is no one answer to this, because everyone has their own definition of art. MARTIAL indicates war or battle - you can't dispute that. however, art encompases many things. I don't necessarily view hata as art, although I see how they can be seen that way. IMO, fighting is art. When you take something that was shown to you, make it your own and express your own style through fighting - that is the highest level of art, not repeating a kata that EVERYONE does in pretty much the exact same way. there is no true expression there, and thus, no art.

An example I like to use is that of my friend and I. We have trained together since 1996, under all of the same instructors except for one - he went to kempo and I went into longfist - we are the same height and body type, yet we fight COMPLETELY different. This is our expression of what we learned, even though we were taught virtually the same things. THAT is art.

Now, if you just want to be able to defend yourself and are not interested in understanding the arts, I suggest kickboxing.

that is a rather broad generalization. Where I train, we convey the history of the art to anyone who asks. We also show some of the traditional techniques that we were taught, although they are not a focus.

[Syphax]

Fair enough. What you train can constitute as an art. However, for the vast majority of martial artists and Masters, kata is definitely an art. YOU cannot dispute that.

And if you say there is no expression in kata, then all I have to say is go back and try again. If you bored with kata or think it is monotonously inexpressive then YOU have failed the kata; the kata has not failed you.

[bushido_man96]

There is no one answer to this, because everyone has their own definition of art. MARTIAL indicates war or battle - you can't dispute that. however, art encompases many things. I don't necessarily view hata as art, although I see how they can be seen that way. IMO, fighting is art. When you take something that was shown to you, make it your own and express your own style through fighting - that is the highest level of art, not repeating a kata that EVERYONE does in pretty much the exact same way. there is no true expression there, and thus, no art.

This is an interesting outlook. I agree that the martial arts should be martial first, and art second.

An example I like to use is that of my friend and I. We have trained together since 1996, under all of the same instructors except for one - he went to kempo and I went into longfist - we are the same height and body type, yet we fight COMPLETELY different. This is our expression of what we learned, even though we were taught virtually the same things. THAT is art.

I think that fighting is indeed and artform in itself. I like this example of how two people can go through virtually the same training for years, and each one still matures into their own system. You can see these results in many different martial styles, but it great to point out.

[24fightingchickens]

that depends on how it's done. to just practice them on air, sure. but to drill the techniques, both cooperatively and with resistance, to spar with them, to try and spar ONLY using a certain set of techniques... doesn't get boring at all.

To you. I do get bored doing that unless I am ramping it up with someone with similar experience who is skilled enough to compete hard without injuring me. It is not easy to find such people to spar with regularly.

However, while free sparring can get you by at long ranges and particularly well if you are the attacker, kata techniques are more useful for unwinding yourself from sticky situations - *if* you take time to practice them right.

I don't think I agree with this one. Why do you think this is true? coming from a muay thai and judo background, I love infighting - you don't have to be at long range at all. IMO, the fight doesn't even begin until you are at that range.

Because we are not discussing judo or muay thai. We are discussing Karate, and in Japanese Karate, sparring is done at long range, and the kata applications are the infighting techniques.

[elbows_and_knees]

Fair enough. What you train can constitute as an art. However, for the vast majority of martial artists and Masters, kata is definitely an art. YOU cannot dispute that.[/q;uote]

sure I could, just as you can dispute that fighting is art. that just begs the question of what art really is - and since that interpretation will vary from person to person, you will not be able to agree on just one answer.

And if you say there is no expression in kata, then all I have to say is go back and try again. If you bored with kata or think it is monotonously inexpressive then YOU have failed the kata; the kata has not failed you.

I don't care about kata, as I no longer do them. Sure, you can express through kata, but at the end of the day, it is pre set. everyone does the same kata, even if they emphasize different areas of it in different ways. there is no such boundary on free fighting - it's a complete self expression.

[elbows_and_knees]

I think that fighting is indeed and artform in itself. I like this example of how two people can go through virtually the same training for years, and each one still matures into their own system. You can see these results in many different martial styles, but it great to point out.

my karate teacher moved back to his hometown of kumamoto, japan. When he comes to visit, we train together. It's always interesting to see how much each of us has changed when we spar.