The Uselessness of Kata

[GKRDan]

Wow!! There is defenitely something not right about the shape of his hand and foot, after all of that training. I don't like arthritis, so I think I will avoid that stuff!

Yeah that guy was 74, he didn't look like he had arthiritis though, but then maybe he didn't condition as heavily as the younger guy.

P.A.L- I don't think in a self defence scenario one would switch to a particular style, you just use what works. I wouldn't start performing a kata on an opponent! But punches, kicks, and my fave, eye hitting techniques are all practiced in a kata. With the exeption of some grappling, although there are some holds etc in kata. (Which is why I train in Ju jitsu also!) Allbeit against an imaginary opponent at full speed, they are there, but I wouldn't try 'kata traps'. I do totally agree with you, but the purpose of kata aren't to 'trap people'.

[elbows_and_knees]

the only thing I think I can add:

training in only kata, or only sparing/live feed back is actualy dangerous, because isolated, i think it would give a sense of knowing what's coming, if you used the same partner always/only did kata.

you shouldn't always spar with the same partner, unless you have a fight coming up and a sparring with a person who fights like your opponent will. Other than that, spar everyone in the class.

[elbows_and_knees]

Throats, groins and eyes are limited amoungst other things. Why not ask yourself why that is? There are plenty of kata that practice strikes to these places, which are also 'pressure points'. True karate employs the use of a conditioned fist without gloves, gloves add alot more surface area to the seiken, thus reducing concentration of power over the smaller surface area. No wonder they were innaffective, especially not being allowed to go for the weakest spots (eyes, throat and groin)! I have been a doorman/bouncer/security guard for years, I train 5 days a week, I have my own dojo, and a library of various MA books. I do 'Mixed Martial Arts' which doesn't mean I fight in a ring.

cool, another bouncer. I do that as well. the percentage of striking the areas mentioned - throat, groin and eyes have nothing to do with gloves - it has everything to do with what the opponent is doing. a moving, resisting opponent does not want you to hit him. those are little areas, and in the case of the throat especially, they are guarded well. THAT is what makes them hard areas to hit. As for the groin, you are a bouncer. I'm sure you know full well that groin strikes can't really be counted on. I've been kicked full force there and not felt it at all until the altercation ended. I've seen others get kicked there with no effect either. Like anything, on sometimes it works, many times it does not.

being nitpicky, by definition, training a lot of styles does not make you a mixed martial artist. that is more of a jkd model of how to make your training complete. MMA refers to striking and grappling. period.

are you saying you've written a whole library of books, or that you simply own a library of them?

[elbows_and_knees]

But did he push his eyes as far as he could into the back of his skull and hold them there? No? I completely understand where you are coming from and I respect your knowledge as a fellow martial artist.

Basically, this all started from someone saying kata is 'useless' for kumite. The fact is that kata cannot be 100% useless, as it strengthens your body and speeds up your reactions to some extent. So, if it practiced enough, there will obviously be 'some' benefit relating to competition/one's physique. Although other methods of training for competition fighting might prove more productive.

I personally focus quite heavily on full speed one step sparring and grappling in my training along with my karate. I practice tameshiwari (breaking) and conditioning quite heavily, and I find it so hard to believe that any pressure point (including eyes throat groin) when struck correctly will lead to no real affect! Even though I have had first hand experience that reassures me that these weak spots are extremely sensitive, and such techniques 'do hold water'!

Look, all I'm trying to say is that I'm growing sick of all the 'karate vs Gracie Jiu Jitsu'/'Thai boxing vs karate' clips claiming that karate is useless. Well, as soon as you put boundaries on it, it is! Karate wasn't meant for competition, it's a killing art without weapons. Thats not to say the other arts aren't, because they are too!

But I guess most MMA guys don't condition as much without gloves on as these guys! http://youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc&mode=related&search=uechi%20ryu

that is a good post. I actually concur with everything you said here. IMO, however, excessive conditioning isn't a necessity. In my CMA days, I did iron body and iron palm, but find that for hitting a person, a heavy bag is really all you need.

As for karate being a killing, art, as you said, the other arts were too. muay thai's predecessors were used by the military and had been for ages. Our usual point here is one of adaptation. saying a style is a killing art isn't really a good excuse for why it hasn't performed well in competition. It's not because of the particular style either. It's a training issue.

[GKRDan]

As for the groin, you are a bouncer. I'm sure you know full well that groin strikes can't really be counted on. I've been kicked full force there and not felt it at all until the altercation ended. I've seen others get kicked there with no effect either

Adrenalin can have many affects on the mind and body, one of these is to take away alot of the sense of pain, it is not until after the incident that it is remembered, felt etc. You can dampen/switch off an attacker's adrenal 'shield' if you like, by "saying please don't hurt me" as convicingly as you can and cowering. Then you go straight in with a pre-emptive strike, and make it count! Or even something quite unexpected like "that's a nice shirt, where did you get it from?" Said as convincing as possible whilst you line up our shot. This makes an attacker have to think for a split second, and that split scond is yours. Yet again, strike when they are in a thought process. I could go on about adrenalin/adrenal dump and its affects etc, but I'm sure you are all too aware of that. If not, buy some Geoff Thompson books. ('Dead or Alive' is a good one.)

Of course, some guys have quite well muscled (or fat!) inner thighs which often prevent even a hard kick/knee to the groin. So it is desirable to have a well placed/timed strike. Your chances of success will increase greatly however if you can place a good shot with the hand, or even better, a very hard and fast grab and squeeze. Maybe you'll get to try it! Obviously this too will not always 'work', and there's no chance of implementing this in the ring.

As for my books, I haven't written them myself, just a rather large collection as I don't have time to attend many different classes.

You are correct in saying a 'mixed martial art' fighter is not a fighter who just happens to train in 2 or more arts to compliment/complete another style/styles as in JKD. I am the latter, although I am not JKD.

Excessive conditioning isn't neccessary as you have stated, I don't consider myself to be as conditioned in tameshiwari as the guys in the clip.

As you have said it is a training issue with regard to competion, a dedicated practioner of any art will overcome an average exponent of another. Regardless of style.

P.S I do not except any responsibility and am not liable for any comments that I make on this or any forum.

[glockmeister]

I never found forms to be very beneficial for anything other than working up a sweat. In various forms when I trained in TSD and long ago when I did Moo Duk Kwan, I was shown moves that made little or no sense, ( what exactly is a reinforced block? Who actually fights out of a "cat stance" why would there be low block to defend against kicks when anyone who has ver kickboxed knows this is a good way to get a broken arm?) It seemed to me that they tended to reinforce techniques that could actually work against you if they were used. Also they were alway big on "keep your head up." which as any boxer can tell you is a good way to get knocked out in a real fight. Again, I am not bashing anyone who belives in forms, just my opinion. I would much rather take all the time spent on forms and morching up and down the dojo doing various blocks and strikes and spending that time on real conditioning, combatives, sparring, etc.

I have always been under the impression that katas in Karate were ways for people long ago to be able to study and practice their techniques alone due to the fact that in some areas martial arts were outlawed. Kata made it safer for a person to practice without fear of getting arrested attending an actual school. The traditional dances in Okinawa if I am not mistaken actually contain many of their fighting moves. They were hidden in the dances. However, this is the 21'st century, we no longer need to do such things to be discrete about our training, so I think in some ways spending so much time on forms is more about art and appreciating the history of the style rather than about fighting.

Just my opinion.

[bushido_man96]

I like your post, glockmeister. You make some good points, and you defend your opinion well. Personnally, I enjoy forms practice. Not because it is essential to the martial arts, or because if I don't do forms, I am not a martial artist. I just enjoy doing them. They give me a good workout, and I enjoy the challenge of ripping out a well-performed form. I also enjoy forms competition.

Like you, I used to question the moves done in forms. After doing some research, and hanging out in the karate forum, I have learned that you can interpret different moves in the forms in different ways, which can lead to some very nice self-defense scenarios. However, I also realize that you can do this without the forms, and just practice self-defense with a partner. But, some like to do the forms interpretation, and some prefer different options.

You also make a good point about how forms used to be used, in order to maintain a way to practice on your own, and to hide a martial style from authorities. What you will notice about just about everything, is that everything changes and gets better and more advanced as time goes by. Cars today are better, faster, and more efficient than cars of 30, 40, and 50 years ago. The martial arts are the same way. Newer and more advanced training methods are coming about, and they should be embraced by practitioners so that we can all better our training.

[ShotokanTre]

I've heard cat stance started as a block to a knife to the stomach. Anyone else hear that?

[bushido_man96]

I've heard cat stance started as a block to a knife to the stomach. Anyone else hear that?

In a book I have on TKD forms applications, the cat stance was used while stepping in to perform an elbow break, and this stance was used because it did not step as far forward, which kept the distance right for the application. Would have to look exactly like a cat stance in acutall self-defense? No, it wouldn't.

[GKRDan]

The cat stance is a stance that you can launch a front/other kick from, I don't think is a stance that one would 'fight' from. It is also a good stance to launch yourself forward from, hence the name. It uses the knee to protects the groin and lowers your centre of gravity. There are many ways to interperet every single technique in kata, but they only reveal themselves as time goes on. I still discover new things about katas, and I have been doing them awhile now. Although when I was a complete beginner at karate, I didn't understand alot of the techniques that I do now. Until the sensei told me the bunkai, or I discover it/the alternatives myself.

I, like bushido man, really enjoy the challenge I can set myself by performing kata and trying to get it right. When I do I get a buzz, when I don't I try and correct it. Individual techniques can be mastered in a relatively short time compared to a whole kata, so this gives me a lifetime of varied training. It also helps me get a good idea of how to string techniques together to generate more power etc in technique. As well as giving a good understanding of my body works and 'feels'.