The Uselessness of Kata

[elbows_and_knees]

Of course, the true original purpose of kata was to preserve the art itself. Being that back in the old days literacy was rare, so people needed a sort of 'encyclopedia' from which to referance techinque, since they couldn't read, they turned it into a dance.

Not only that literacy was rare, but because there was so much out there. There was at one time over 700 styles of jujutsu. There are hundreds of kung fu styles also. Many of these styles have since become extinct and we will never know about them. However, some have been kept alive through passing on forms. In old china, it wasn't uncommon for a style to have very few forms. Look at taiji, xingyi, baji... Over time, people cross trained, and they added forms from other styles into their own system, and in some cases, they added them to preserve a dying art.

[GKRDan]

I am new here, but have been training in Karate for over 11 years. Do you think kata was practiced for kumite or ring/cage fighting? The answer is no. There are so many pressure point techniques etc hidden within these kata, techniques that would never be allowed in competition. Karate is a 'martial art', martial means war, war means death. Competition does not allow deaths! I believe certain systems have proven effectiveness in the ring, this isn't karate's true purpose, and it isn't why I train.

[DokterVet]

Pressure points are legal in most MMA. People don't do them in MMA because they haven't proven to be effective. Throat and groin strikes are limited now, but in the early days of vale tudo and no holds barred fighting, these 'deadly' techniques did not work against grapplers, shootfighters, etc. The 'too deadly for the ring' argument really doesn't hold any water.

[bushido_man96]

elbows_and_knees,

I re-read your posts on this and began to really think about kata last night.

Thank you for that,

lets just look at kata just from a fighting aspect.

Kata is used to train muscle memory (no mind - mushin).

After many repititions, you no longer need to think which moves comes next - the kata just flows naturally.

(beginner belts get the form with one set of techniques, which is then practiced many times over.

After some time, that same person re-analyzes that same form [maybe visioning new techniques not displayed in the beginning] This person then practices the form many times over, but with the newer vision of techniques.)

In an actual fight, you do not have time to think what move you will be doing next. you will just re-act (using moves from kata)

That is absolutely right. That is the purpose of drilling. Now, let's think about a similar scenario. Instead of drilling a kata solo and going over bunkai solo, consider the person who drills the techniques repeatedly with a partner, getting live feedback, then works those same techniques in contact sparring. Who will be more apt - the guy doing partner drills, or the guy focusing on kata?

Good point. This was one of the advantages that Kano's judo had over the jujitsu practitioners.

[Traditional-Fist]

elbows_and_knees,

I re-read your posts on this and began to really think about kata last night.

Thank you for that,

lets just look at kata just from a fighting aspect.

Kata is used to train muscle memory (no mind - mushin).

After many repititions, you no longer need to think which moves comes next - the kata just flows naturally.

(beginner belts get the form with one set of techniques, which is then practiced many times over.

After some time, that same person re-analyzes that same form [maybe visioning new techniques not displayed in the beginning] This person then practices the form many times over, but with the newer vision of techniques.)

In an actual fight, you do not have time to think what move you will be doing next. you will just re-act (using moves from kata)

That is absolutely right. That is the purpose of drilling. Now, let's think about a similar scenario. Instead of drilling a kata solo and going over bunkai solo, consider the person who drills the techniques repeatedly with a partner, getting live feedback, then works those same techniques in contact sparring. Who will be more apt - the guy doing partner drills, or the guy focusing on kata?

The guy doing both will be more apt then either one, and that is how karate was meant to be practised.

[ShotokanTre]

the only thing I think I can add:

training in only kata, or only sparing/live feed back is actualy dangerous, because isolated, i think it would give a sense of knowing what's coming, if you used the same partner always/only did kata.

[GKRDan]

Pressure points are legal in most MMA. People don't do them in MMA because they haven't proven to be effective. Throat and groin strikes are limited now, but in the early days of vale tudo and no holds barred fighting, these 'deadly' techniques did not work against grapplers, shootfighters, etc. The 'too deadly for the ring' argument really doesn't hold any water.

Throats, groins and eyes are limited amoungst other things. Why not ask yourself why that is? There are plenty of kata that practice strikes to these places, which are also 'pressure points'. True karate employs the use of a conditioned fist without gloves, gloves add alot more surface area to the seiken, thus reducing concentration of power over the smaller surface area. No wonder they were innaffective, especially not being allowed to go for the weakest spots (eyes, throat and groin)! I have been a doorman/bouncer/security guard for years, I train 5 days a week, I have my own dojo, and a library of various MA books. I do 'Mixed Martial Arts' which doesn't mean I fight in a ring.

[DokterVet]

True karate employs the use of a conditioned fist without gloves, gloves add alot more surface area to the seiken, thus reducing concentration of power over the smaller surface area. No wonder they were innaffective, especially not being allowed to go for the weakest spots (eyes, throat and groin)!

Early MMA was done without gloves, and the throat and groin were legal targets. Pressure points were generally not a factor. Kata techniques were not demonstrated to be effective, and fighters whose training methods focused on kata were generally less successful than those who favoured 'alive' training methods such as hard contact sparring/rolling.

As for the eyes, in Vale Tudo Japan 1995, Gerard Gordeau resorted to eye gouging Yuki Nakai into blindness. Nakai went on to win the fight, as well as his next fight that night.

Why aren't eye strikes allowed? Yuki Nakai is blind now unneccessarily. The restrictions are to prevent unneccessary injuries to the fighters. The knowledge we gained from early, fairly barbaric, MMA taught us that they were not fight deciding techniques anyway.

Practicing pressure points, or anything else, exclusively on the air cannot compare to techniques you can practice against a fully resisting partner.

[GKRDan]

But did he push his eyes as far as he could into the back of his skull and hold them there? No? I completely understand where you are coming from and I respect your knowledge as a fellow martial artist.

Basically, this all started from someone saying kata is 'useless' for kumite. The fact is that kata cannot be 100% useless, as it strengthens your body and speeds up your reactions to some extent. So, if it practiced enough, there will obviously be 'some' benefit relating to competition/one's physique. Although other methods of training for competition fighting might prove more productive.

I personally focus quite heavily on full speed one step sparring and grappling in my training along with my karate. I practice tameshiwari (breaking) and conditioning quite heavily, and I find it so hard to believe that any pressure point (including eyes throat groin) when struck correctly will lead to no real affect! Even though I have had first hand experience that reassures me that these weak spots are extremely sensitive, and such techniques 'do hold water'!

Look, all I'm trying to say is that I'm growing sick of all the 'karate vs Gracie Jiu Jitsu'/'Thai boxing vs karate' clips claiming that karate is useless. Well, as soon as you put boundaries on it, it is! Karate wasn't meant for competition, it's a killing art without weapons. Thats not to say the other arts aren't, because they are too!

But I guess most MMA guys don't condition as much without gloves on as these guys! http://youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc&mode=related&search=uechi%20ryu

[GKRDan]

I do also train against a resisting partner, quite often actually! I know some good ground work, I also know how tiring it is! But if I started striking my training partner with my well conditioned ungloved hands, pushing my fingers into his eyes, striking his neck with shuto (knife hand) etc, trying to break his neck, biting, stamping on joints/weak spots etc. This would greatly improve my chances of overcoming his cage/ring fighting only techniques. If you liked the last clip, watch this. Look how kata keeps the old guy (74) going and how well he moves, and watch the sparring, of which traditional karate was supposed to be practiced as much as kata. http://youtube.com/watch?v=mGIHXVeL24o&search=uechi%20ryu