an interesting perspective on the kyu and dan system

[bushido_man96]

I feel bad for your experience in Okinawa, Rick_72. I think Okinawa and Japan have been a hotbed for the politics of martial arts for many years. I remember reading recently about another organization that is having a shake-up, and will probably end in a split.

As for having high ranking masters of all styles on a board overseeing the martial arts, I am not so sure this would work, either. I think that politics would rear its ugly head again, and there would be more problems and splits. There are too many egos involved.

There are some organizations that will recognize rank from other styles, but these are few and far between. They come in at their rank, but then they must spend time learning the new style's material, which is fair, I think. I didn't switch styles, I just switched organizations, and my rank was not recognized.

[cathal]

I was going to start a new thread for this, but I'll go ahead and post what I saw on my trip to Okinawa (that I just returned from a few days ago) here.

First of all, Martial Arts is killing itself as a community. No one from the outside is doing it for us, its an inside job. There are so many "organizations" out there that are so disparaging to each other, not openly, but disparaging just the same, that its no wonder none of us can see things on the same sheet of music. Everyone has their own organization, and they are all taking in profits from their "sanctioned schools". The reason I say profits, is because those parent organizations really don't have to do anything taxing (short of loaning their name, the occasional picture, and listing all of the organizations students by grade in their master logbook) in the training of those other schools students, yet they receive money from them for belt testing, and kata seminars. All profit.

While I enjoy my training, and miss it when I'm not able to attend, I'm starting to think the entire premise of martial arts is a big money grab. I'm not going to elaborate too much on that, I'm sorry. I don't need the kind of political pressure that could come down on me from spelling out that statement, that is, if I want to keep training. I will say this, Okinawan martial arts in particular could have been completely lost had it not been for American service members wanting to learn it sometime after WW II, because the practice of martial arts had been outlawed in Okinawa after the surrender. It was American Soldiers and Marines stationed on Okinawa that comprised the first class's being taught by Okinawan master's after WW II. From that time it spread to the rest of the world, via many different means.

The politics of martial arts oranization, and money is the reason all of the different martial arts will never get the same respect level. Someone from one style will never get the respect they may very well deserve from people from another style when they walk into the school. There is no real oversight on martial arts schools, short of the specific organization that they belong to. If there was one organization providing overwatch, like a board of governors, comprised of "experts" from all of the different styles than maybe. Will that ever happen? Doubt it.

As far as belts go, what difference does it make really? I'm still Kyu graded, but there are several black belts in my own school that I can run circles around, in kata, kobudo, and bunkai. Not to mention what I could do to them in a fight. That doesn't mean I don't show them respect! Just because I'm more athletically inclined, stronger, or faster than them, doesn't mean I should feel superior to them in the study of martial arts, because they've put in the time and effort to get where they are. Its up to me to put in that time and effort if I want to be where they are. That's my outlook on belts. I respect, and listen to every black belt that walks through the door to my school, whether or not they're a Dan in my style or another. I'm quite certain they have something to share with me as far as training goes, regardless of the style they came from. If everyone had that attitude, martial arts might be a better place.

Black belts in my school that come from different styles to train with us wear their black belts to class. They still have to test through our ranks, and rarely give teaching to senior Kyu grades regarding our style, but they absolutely have things to share on techniques common to all styles, like fighting.

If you can't tell already, my trip to Okinawa really discouraged me on marital arts. I got a chance to see the ugly politics of martial arts organization. Frankly, I suppose if I wasn't under contract (which I do agree with in a martial arts school by the way), I'd probably quit training in martial arts all together. I want to train, and thats it.....no politics, no money talk, no "my organization is better than yours, and your teacher is no good" crap, just training. I want to go to class, sweat my brains out, feel like I learned something, and go home feeling good. Not go to class, sweat my brains out, wonder if the stuff I'm learning is going to be respected at another school of my same style or another style, and be ticked off when I get home. Unfortunately, more often than not its the later....and my trip to Okinawa only made matters worse.

Your reference to the profit of organizations is going to lead someone to believe the wrong thing. When you say profit, that is true, however it isn't the profit you think it is. The profit the organizations receive is a gross profit. Many deductions are included. For example business expenses like taxes and all the travel the masters perform. I don't pretend to know all of the expenses as I don't run an organization, but we must at least keep that in mind. Moreover I don't know all of the fees involved but I'm certain that there will be a few organizations which charge too much. That is where we martial artists come in, though. Just like consumers we have to make sure that we do not train where the classes aren't worth the price.

On the training of martial arts in Japan and Okinawa during World War II (and afterward) I can't believe it was primarily American servicemen. Martial artists were training in and around Okinawa and Japan long before, during, and after the world war.

I agree wholeheartedly on your statement regarding the cross-organization & dojo respect. A seasoned martial artist in one dojo may not receive the proper respect from another organization because that person just doesn't do it the same way. I also agree with your outlook on senior belts the learning from the experiences of black belts.

Out of curiosity what experience did you have in your trip which discouraged you from the martial arts organizations?

[Rick_72]

Your reference to the profit of organizations is going to lead someone to believe the wrong thing. When you say profit, that is true, however it isn't the profit you think it is. The profit the organizations receive is a gross profit. Many deductions are included. For example business expenses like taxes and all the travel the masters perform. I don't pretend to know all of the expenses as I don't run an organization, but we must at least keep that in mind. Moreover I don't know all of the fees involved but I'm certain that there will be a few organizations which charge too much. That is where we martial artists come in, though. Just like consumers we have to make sure that we do not train where the classes aren't worth the price.

On the training of martial arts in Japan and Okinawa during World War II (and afterward) I can't believe it was primarily American servicemen. Martial artists were training in and around Okinawa and Japan long before, during, and after the world war.

Out of curiosity what experience did you have in your trip which discouraged you from the martial arts organizations?

What business expense's are you referring to? As far as travel cost's for the "Master's", those are covered by the students receiving the training, or seminar. Those guys don't shell out money from their own pocket, or the organization's bank to travel to their schools abroad. The organization may host a web site, or something of that nature, but those cost's are low and are bringing them in more money than their costing them.

You're very correct about martial arts in Japan and Okinawa before the war. However, martial arts training was outlawed in the surrender agreement after WW II. It was revived, and ultimately became main stream again after the war by the desire of those foreign military personnel (which were overwhelmingly American) stationed in Japan. I mearly said it could have been lost forever, it may very well have caught on again, but it took the relaxing of the occupation law to get it back into mainstream.

I'd rather not elaborate too much on the details of my trip, I'll just say I found it rather disturbing, and looking back on it now comical. As a mere student of a specific martial art, I shouldn't have to bear the burden of someone else's political problem, however, that's how I was received over there.

[alsey]

i thoroughly agree, rick. i think your trip to okinawa revealed things i often see when i look into MA organization, though probably on a greater scale. everytime i read something or talk to someone about organizations and stuff 'high up' in MA, its never encouraging. at the start we're always told how MA is all about respect and stuff, but i don't see it. not at the top anyway. you get respect from a group for doing what they say, and in doing that you don't get respect from everyone else.

ultimately my views on MA politics are much like my views on 'real' politics. it all sucks but there's not much i can do about it and i prefer to forget about it except for the rare occations where my opinion counts for something. MA politics are worse in a way though, because at least in real world politics there is democracy. in MA we still have feudalism or even despotism at times.

[alsey]

Do you think that if the whole belt system was changed to just white-green-brown-black or white-brown-black or even white-black that there would be more people training in karate/martial arts, the same amount as now or less?

personally i'd quite like to see white-green-brown-black, or 20 different colors-black. but let black be black. its the beginner end of the scale where grades are helpful IMO, not the other end.

[patusai]

Perhaps the answer is going back to the beginning when there were no "styles" and each family had their own karate as it was learned from father to son (or daughter). I mean all the styles and organizations are breaking down anyhow and each has a faction that goes it's own way. It's getting too watered down and nobody can get alone.

I have not taught in years. Not because of politics or because of a bad experience but rather, with a family, there are other things to do that need getting done. I think what I have learned in MA, will continue to be for my benefit and nothing more. I can teach my daughter and stepson if they choose to learn what I have been taught. They may choose to go into training in a large prestigious organization or simply learn at home with me. Politics cannot and will not stop. I think it is human nature that screws it up more often than not.

[Jiffy]

Patusai, you are so correct. Unfortunately politics interferes with the ultimate reality that we all want to be the best Martial Artists we can be. All we can do is finding a training organisation/arangement that is suitable for us and get out of it what we can.

[bushido_man96]

It is sad that it seems like the oganizations become a necessary evil, when it comes to getting certifications and credibility and such. Society places such clout in these things. It relates to what people perceive as accountability and legitimacy. Kind of stinks, but its hard to get around.

[Hecklerboy]

I don't post often on this board, however I do read it almost everyday.

I actually like the belt system. It keeps you motived, especially the kids. We just recently had a yellow belt earn her blue belt (9 yr old). She now has more motivation and is doing really well in class.

Our style recognizes other organizations belt ranks and will allow them to keep their belt rank in class while learning our system. In fact we recently had a brown belt from another organization join our class. We recognize his belt rank, but he will have to learn all of the requirements before he can test for his second brown.

As far as the money part. Our works a little different. Everyone in our organization that is testing will meet at a designated area to test. This ensure that the testing is fair. You are not allowed to be test by any blackbelt from your own school.

It cost money to rent the hall or gymnasium to hold the test in. Also the belts and certificate have to be purchased. So some cost for a belt test is reasonable However, it only cost $30 to test for your belt in our organization. I could see $250 to test, even if testing for a blackbelt, discouraging people. That just seems a little steep to me.

Well that's my 2 cents worth, not that it mean anything.

[ps1]

It is sad that it seems like the oganizations become a necessary evil, when it comes to getting certifications and credibility and such. Society places such clout in these things. It relates to what people perceive as accountability and legitimacy. Kind of stinks, but its hard to get around.

Honestly, I hear more martial artists ask about certifications through organizations than those who are untrained. Many people take what instructors say at face value because they don't know the differance.