an interesting perspective on the kyu and dan system

[alsey]

i actually quite like all the coloured belts, its the other end of the system that i'm not so sure about. when you're a beginner, getting to the next grade is motivating and gives you a sense of achievement. compare it to academia again: the coloured belts are like your grades/years in school, you pass tests and then go onto the next one. then maybe you go to college/university, this is like getting a black belt, then you do postgrad stuff and eventually get your PhD, this is like maybe 5th dan or something. but then it stops, there are no more grades, you are qualified in whatever field you studied and then you try to learn something no one else has learned before. there doesn't seem to be any equivalent of this in the dan system (i may be wrong, i'm not very high up after all), you just keep learning what your master learned, which is what his master learned, which is what his master learned etc. breaking away from the system and going on your own seems to be the only way of doing something new.

i occasionally asked the chief instructor at my dojo if we could try something a little different, but the answer was always no. why not? 'because that's the way we do things'. to be fair i was just a lowly nidan, but had i been a godan or whatever i don't think the answer would be much different. i guess i just don't want to see traditonal MA be reduced to copying. copying isn't art.

Edited September 2, 2006 by alsey

[bushido_man96]

It was a very inbteresting article, the thing that stuck out for me was about the kids and their ranks. I like the belt system and i think it should stay in place but i dont think some of the people deserve their ranks, so yes the tape on belts sounds like a good idea. Also the older guy thing, there was a big older guy grading for blck belt at our dojo recently and he failed. But should old people be judged, surely their fitness levels cant be as good as the younger one's

Here is my feeling on ranking. Each person has to be judged individually, and cannot be compared to the next individual. The basis of their improvement should be based on how far they have come as compared to the day before, the month before, the year before. Each person is an individual, and therefore should be evaluated as such. After all, it is their karate, TKD, TSD, and so forth, right?

[jaymac]

I have to admit that I did not read the article, but get the basis of its topic. As an adult, I would not mind only having a few belts in the system up to black belt. I do believe though that our society works on a positive reward system. Adding more belts and tape to belts for small achievements on a child is a good reward system. They know what they have to do properly to earn that next stripe/belt. As for 24 fighting chickens, R.Redmond spends alot of his energy being pessimistc about MA. He is a good author, but I do not want to have a negative attitude towards martial arts. I feel that anyone who trains in a style is bettering themself in many areas of life, no matter what color belt or lack of belt they wear.

[cathal]

My thoughts on this article do not go with everyone else here, I'm afraid. The author does make a few good points peppered through the article. But this feels to me as though the author is taking it way to personally. I do agree that a reward system is something which is natural to us because we prefer positive reinforcement over negative (or none at all). I do also agree that many instructors go way overboard on that area.

In my own training I have found positive reinforcement through the proper execution of my techniques. I get further satisfaction from the fact I'm performing the technique consistently properly. Everything else is us "gravy" as they say. For example a peer comes up and says that my backstance looks great, or that I can do that roundhouse kick quite well. Those memories stick with me, and make me feel great.

As for kids, especially the young ones, they can't derive that kind of satisfaction.. So what does one do? How do you positive reinforce a child? You make it fun, that's what. You make the classes shorter than for adults, you include more games and exercise.

Anyway I could go on and on...that's my two cents for now.

[patusai]

This is a very interesting article, and brings up some good points. Why can't the martial arts progress like boxing or wrestling? They have no ranks, and have plenty of members.

However, the rank system does provide some benefits, like providing a guide as to where the abilities or knowledge of the student lie.

Personally, I have trained for so long, that I could go either way.

That said, I plan to test for 3rd dan in April, and it will cost me $250! That kind of stinks, but what's a guy to do?

As for cost of 3rd dan...in business and professional societies there is a cost for certification testing and it is usually a few hundred dollars. For example, there are a number of security related certifications and the testing is $300 plus there is a recertification fee (about 50 bucks) every three years. My point is certification of any kind costs $$. I agree that it should not be that way. It is almost as if you need to have money to advance in anything. It is not enough to know your stuff. You have to pay someone a fee to acknowledge that you know it. Sometimes I have a difficult time with that.

Good luck in April!

[bushido_man96]

This is a very interesting article, and brings up some good points. Why can't the martial arts progress like boxing or wrestling? They have no ranks, and have plenty of members.

However, the rank system does provide some benefits, like providing a guide as to where the abilities or knowledge of the student lie.

Personally, I have trained for so long, that I could go either way.

That said, I plan to test for 3rd dan in April, and it will cost me $250! That kind of stinks, but what's a guy to do?

As for cost of 3rd dan...in business and professional societies there is a cost for certification testing and it is usually a few hundred dollars. For example, there are a number of security related certifications and the testing is $300 plus there is a recertification fee (about 50 bucks) every three years. My point is certification of any kind costs $$. I agree that it should not be that way. It is almost as if you need to have money to advance in anything. It is not enough to know your stuff. You have to pay someone a fee to acknowledge that you know it. Sometimes I have a difficult time with that.

Good luck in April!

Hey, thanks! I will need it.

[parkerlineage]

It's quite unfortunate that money is such an issue, but such is the world in which we live.

Good luck in April, by the way, bushidoman!

[bushido_man96]

It's quite unfortunate that money is such an issue, but such is the world in which we live.

Good luck in April, by the way, bushidoman!

Thanks, parkerlineage!

[Rick_72]

I was going to start a new thread for this, but I'll go ahead and post what I saw on my trip to Okinawa (that I just returned from a few days ago) here.

First of all, Martial Arts is killing itself as a community. No one from the outside is doing it for us, its an inside job. There are so many "organizations" out there that are so disparaging to each other, not openly, but disparaging just the same, that its no wonder none of us can see things on the same sheet of music. Everyone has their own organization, and they are all taking in profits from their "sanctioned schools". The reason I say profits, is because those parent organizations really don't have to do anything taxing (short of loaning their name, the occasional picture, and listing all of the organizations students by grade in their master logbook) in the training of those other schools students, yet they receive money from them for belt testing, and kata seminars. All profit.

While I enjoy my training, and miss it when I'm not able to attend, I'm starting to think the entire premise of martial arts is a big money grab. I'm not going to elaborate too much on that, I'm sorry. I don't need the kind of political pressure that could come down on me from spelling out that statement, that is, if I want to keep training. I will say this, Okinawan martial arts in particular could have been completely lost had it not been for American service members wanting to learn it sometime after WW II, because the practice of martial arts had been outlawed in Okinawa after the surrender. It was American Soldiers and Marines stationed on Okinawa that comprised the first class's being taught by Okinawan master's after WW II. From that time it spread to the rest of the world, via many different means.

The politics of martial arts oranization, and money is the reason all of the different martial arts will never get the same respect level. Someone from one style will never get the respect they may very well deserve from people from another style when they walk into the school. There is no real oversight on martial arts schools, short of the specific organization that they belong to. If there was one organization providing overwatch, like a board of governors, comprised of "experts" from all of the different styles than maybe. Will that ever happen? Doubt it.

As far as belts go, what difference does it make really? I'm still Kyu graded, but there are several black belts in my own school that I can run circles around, in kata, kobudo, and bunkai. Not to mention what I could do to them in a fight. That doesn't mean I don't show them respect! Just because I'm more athletically inclined, stronger, or faster than them, doesn't mean I should feel superior to them in the study of martial arts, because they've put in the time and effort to get where they are. Its up to me to put in that time and effort if I want to be where they are. That's my outlook on belts. I respect, and listen to every black belt that walks through the door to my school, whether or not they're a Dan in my style or another. I'm quite certain they have something to share with me as far as training goes, regardless of the style they came from. If everyone had that attitude, martial arts might be a better place.

Black belts in my school that come from different styles to train with us wear their black belts to class. They still have to test through our ranks, and rarely give teaching to senior Kyu grades regarding our style, but they absolutely have things to share on techniques common to all styles, like fighting.

If you can't tell already, my trip to Okinawa really discouraged me on marital arts. I got a chance to see the ugly politics of martial arts organization. Frankly, I suppose if I wasn't under contract (which I do agree with in a martial arts school by the way), I'd probably quit training in martial arts all together. I want to train, and thats it.....no politics, no money talk, no "my organization is better than yours, and your teacher is no good" crap, just training. I want to go to class, sweat my brains out, feel like I learned something, and go home feeling good. Not go to class, sweat my brains out, wonder if the stuff I'm learning is going to be respected at another school of my same style or another style, and be ticked off when I get home. Unfortunately, more often than not its the later....and my trip to Okinawa only made matters worse.

[RichardHangHong]

It certainly puts some interesting views forward.

Do you think that if the whole belt system was changed to just white-green-brown-black or white-brown-black or even white-black that there would be more people training in karate/martial arts, the same amount as now or less?

Personally, I think that less people would be training as people like to mark their progress this way. It's ego at its best but it can be a good thing in a way. In an ideal world it gives you a rough idea of where people have progressed so far in their chosen art.

A lot of styles use the mon system (tips on belts) with children. I can't comment on this as I don't really know much about it, perhaps someone here could shed a bit more light on it for me? The simpler the explanation, the better. LOL!