Martial Arts masters.

[Drunken Monkey]

see, now you look like you just like arguing.

 

i) no, you wouldn't call your swimming 'teacher' master but you would refere to him as your 'coach'. exactly the same thing as sifu (in a slightly differnt context).

 

and you're taking things too literally.

 

no, not using the titles will not render the 'school' disorganised but it helps in keeping track of class seniority and where we all are within the school.

 

for example, how my students should regard my sifu, or my kung fu brothers.

 

ii) am i chinese? well, most people can tell you whether or not i am.

 

and well, in a way you're right, i could do without using the traditional titles.

 

but then if i adopt english versions or something similar it gets even more confusing.

 

should i start calling my sifu 'my teacher'.

 

then the guy who taught him would be 'my teacher's teacher'.

 

then there's 'my teacher's teacher's class mate'.

 

using this, things can get very messy very quickly.

 

why not use the chinese system and the it would just be 'sifu', 'sigung', si-suk gung'

 

yes i could do without it but for me it would make things more difficult, not easier.

 

iii) but then you are looking at the use of title as pure vanity.

 

is a school teacher vain because they are called 'miss' or 'sir'?

 

is a judge vain because they are called 'your honour'?

 

is a sports trainer vain because they are called 'coach'?

 

see, your problem with the use of titles is purely because of YOUR OWN misconceptions.

 

not because of what the use of titles means.

 

your view is; he who uses 'sifu' is vain.

 

that is just wrong.

 

like i have said before.

 

sifu means martial father, as in one who teaches martial arts to his students.

 

there is nothing in it that means master.

 

that is why the word father is used.

 

it denotes a family structure within the school.

 

it says that your sifu has the same role in your martial art life as your real father has in your normal life.

 

he isn't there to give orders that you obey, rather he is there to offer advice, a way to do things.

 

perhaps your problem also stems from the fact that you have not actually experienced a proper chinese martial arts school where this system exists in its traditional form.

 

in our little class, we have lots of people from different backgrounds.

 

one of our group had a lot of home problems.

 

sifu let him stay at his home and helped him settle down, find a job and all for nothing.

 

that is my sifu.

 

do you think he doesn't deserve the title of martial father?

[White Warlock]

I was brought up to understand that the title of 'sifu' was not a self-imposed one, but a title of respect given by his students. Similar to you or i calling someone Mr. Smith, as opposed to John, or Johnny. Or referring to your doctor as... doctor Smith... as opposed to Mr. Smith, or John, or Johnny.

 

Of course, there's also the formal/informal connotations posed here, but hey... details.

 

Anyway, didn't read the entire thread... so not sure how applicable my input on this one is.

[Drunken Monkey]

every input is appreciated.

 

sometimes it takes an 'outsider' to see things clearly....

 

anyway, you're right.

 

in chinese tradition, it is the one who wishes to learn who goes to the man and asks to accepted as a student.

 

this act of asking to be taught by him is your signifying that you regard him as being a man who can teach you; hence by going to him, it is you who is asking him to be your 'sifu'.

 

outside of this immediate relationship, the use of 'sifu' is common courtesy between martial artists.

 

this other guy has his own school, hence he was deemd by those who went to him, as being worthy to the title 'sifu' so we too will regard him as 'sifu'.

 

we might like him, or we might not.

 

we might think his kung fu is not good but we will not disrespect him because that is not how we do things.

 

the fact that he can teach us his kung fu which we do not know means he is still a 'sifu'.

[White Warlock]

And there it is.

 

You stated earlier that you sometimes debated with yourself as to whether you should be referred to as sifu, with the thought being posed that you would prefer your name being used for informal settings, and a title being used for formal settings.

 

I can understand that, but I propose a different approach.

 

When I am 'showing' something to someone, when the circumstances are clearly informal... it's all as friend-based as it gets.

 

The need for maintaining formality is when things get out-of-hand, or have the capacity to get out-of-hand. I.e., formality is needed to decrease the possibility of injuries or insults. And there it is again.

 

The endgoal is to ensure students behave and focus on being students. As such, i impose 'rules of behavior,' which i repeat often. I state there will be no goofing off, that everyone will stop what they are doing and give me their full attention when i address them or the class, that they will 'freeze' when i yell "STOP!" as it indicates someone may be about to get hurt, that the senior students should be listened to, that arguing is not accepted, and that the door is 'right over there' if they have a problem with any of that.

 

I leave it up to the students if they wish to address me as anything other than my first name. I could care less, as long as it's not disrespectful, or posed in a disrespectful manner. And, if someone gets too informal during the regular training session... I simply say, "not now" and it is understood.

 

I is my 'opinion' that developing the proper relationship with your students is far more important than imposing titles. I have also noticed that people are far more often referring to me as 'sifu' or 'sensei' during informal settings, likely because it isn't important to me.

[Drunken Monkey]

i understand you completely.

 

i was taught under a chinese system in a chinese fashion, following chinese traditions and the use of sifu, to me, is no different to calling someone aunty or uncle.

 

as you said earlier, the use of sifu is no different to the use of doctor or mister.

 

it's nothing special.

 

outside of the martial arts setting, other people call my sifu by that title because they know he is of martial arts background and that is the title traditionally bestowed onto those who teach kung fu.

 

we, the students, call him sifu because that is who he is to us (i.e he is our martial father).

 

in the class, the ideals of being a martial father is that your students treat you as a father figure and that you should act/behave as a father figure.

 

with that comes the responsibility of being a 'parent'.

 

i gave a little story earlier and that is the kind of thing i am talking about.

 

my sifu really is a father to us.

 

i would say that if we didn't think he filled this role, we wouldn't call him by that name.

 

i just don't understand why people think it means anything more.

 

it's not a question of vanity as ripper says.

 

for me, the use of 'sifu' is a cultural thing.

 

i would call anyone in my aunt' kitchen sifu just as i would call the decorators who is plastering my flat in hk sifu.

[White Warlock]

I am under the impression most of this was merely a misunderstanding. If you look back at Ripper's post, he was indicating those who call 'themselves' sifu, or who insist that others call them such.

 

I understand Rippers point, in that i wouldn't feel comfortable with someone who insists i call them "mister." On the other hand, if there was a need for formality, and i was being too informal, i suppose that would be one means to create distance. I just don't consider it a courteous means and such an action would present the impression that the guy was 'full of it.' Considering this, i suppose i would also lose a bit of respect for someone who insists on being called by a certain title. On the other hand, if someone 'other' than the instructor insists upon it, that would be a different matter altogether. I.e., as you posed it MD, if the other students insisted upon all the new students calling the instructor by 'sifu,' I'm sure things would be taken as they should.

 

And there it is again. Imposition of title as a means 'to' honor. Enforcement of title, as a means 'to' honor. The instructor does not impose, nor enforce.

 

Your instructor is lucky to have students who feel he deserves respect.

[Ripper]

I am under the impression most of this was merely a misunderstanding. If you look back at Ripper's post, he was indicating those who call 'themselves' sifu, or who insist that others call them such.

You're right, Warlock.

[White Warlock]

My job is done.

[Drunken Monkey]

y'know, i also just noticed that he is against the use of 'master' whilst i am talking about the title of 'sifu' and they are two totally different things.

[supergroup7]

I want to answer the original idea behind this thread.

 

One of the people that I've been impressed with is Yakuta Yaguchi Sensei. I have been lucky enough to attend his seminars, and have learned to appreciate his wisdom, knowledge, and abilities. I was priviledge to catch him sparring with one of the Sensei from my city during a break between classes. It is no wonder that he has trained so many kumite champions, and has done so well himself. He moves so effortlessly. His speed, and power are astounding. Yet, he is so approachable, and kind. His classes are filled with a sense of humour, and an appreciation of humanity. He really calls out for each karateka to learn how their body does karate, and to work within the capabilities of their body. He's a "down to earth" Sensei with overflowing knowledge to share. If anyone is attending the Masters camp in Philedelphia this year, I do hope that they take advantage of training under Yaguchi Sensei. I am always grateful, and honored to be able to train under him.