UFC, Pride, and etc...

[GoGoGo]

I'd like to get educated in UFC and Pride a little more just to understand.

These matches confuse me becuase of the following reasons:

1. The fighters seem to strike like street fighters who were never taught much about fighting. They seem to just "go wild" on their opponent rather than using precision, fast, and powerful strikes.

2. The guys seem to be incredibly slow at times. I am taught to kick hard, strong, and have my leg back within a fraction of a second. A lot of UFC/Pride fighters seem to just swing their legs out 20x slower than they should leading to a grab. I also saw a Tae Kwon Do fighter in a match who kicked his opponent about 50 times... Every time he was too slow and it just got blocked/grabbed.

So I wonder, why are these guys so slow and "hulk"ish? Why don't some fast and powerful guys come and win?

If you want to see what I'm talking about, go look at this fight. If those guys were not in a ring with those uniforms on, I wouldn't have even thought they were UFC fighters. Great punch, but the rest of the fight seems to be very slow and strange really.

here is another example. If you would like to see more, you can click the other videos on the right.

Thanks for your time.

[legkicker]

I highly disagree with much of what you're saying and here are the reasons why:

1. In full contact competition you don't need to pull every kick back fast, this is something done for newbies in karate, tkd, etc. Believe it or not you can still deliver an effective kick without pulling it back in Muay Thai, Kyokushin, etc. This is something usually done by someone with a few years experience. People like Ramon Dekkers, Buakaw, Filho, Pettas, and many more do this all the time.

2. You showed an old clip of Datsik vs. Arvlovsky..enough said.

3. What TKD fighter have you seen that did well in Pride or UFC? I have seen one TKD fighter that represented TKD do allright in a few lesser cards.

I actually agree that some of the competitors in these events need to work on their striking ability but it has been getting better. With individuals like Mirko, Wanderlei, Rich Franklin, GSP, and many others your opinion on poorly trained fighters in MMA seems kinda weird.

You can definitely get by in MMA with being a superior grappler instead of a good striker.

Watch kickboxing/muay thai fights of Mirko, BArnett, Ivan Sallavery, Duane Ludwig, Ramon Dekkers, and Semmy Shilt and tell me they can't strike. BTW, all of these individuals I listed also compete in MMA.

[GoGoGo]

Well I hope you understand that my goal was not to stir up a big debate and not to drop insults down on UFC and Pride. I'm just someone who has a brain and sees "hey, in Karate, we're taught to kick FAST and bring leg BACK" which contrasts to most of what I see in the match fights.

One question I do have is, how "much" are those guys "fighting?" Are they giving 100% to beat on each other or do they not fight quite as if they were on the street (using as much power, etc...)? Is there a specific reason why we don't see as much JKD/Karate in the fights? Do the type of people who learn those disciplines just not want to be involved as much?

Thanks for replying.

[bushido_man96]

Keep in mind that the UFC, Pride, etc. is a sport, and as such, the strategy is somewhat different than going into a street fight. They spend hours every day training. It may look like they aren't striking or kicking effectively, but they actually do have good speed and make good contact. When in a sport or fighting situation, perfect technique tends to deviate somewhat.

[alsey]

1. their strikes are very precise, very fast, and very powerful. most of the strikers train in boxing, kickboxing or muay thai. these styles use a lot of fast combinations which you may think are 'wild' but they're actually quite precise and complex.

2. i really havn't seen many kick catches in UFC. it would be useful if you have particular examples to discuss.

as for the fighters being slow, all i can say is that they look very fast and strong to me. that arlovski fight wasn't the fastest ever, sure, but that guy is freaking strong. i dunno, maybe you should just watch some more. the lightweight fights tend to be faster.

[alsey]

One question I do have is, how "much" are those guys "fighting?" Are they giving 100% to beat on each other or do they not fight quite as if they were on the street (using as much power, etc...)? Is there a specific reason why we don't see as much JKD/Karate in the fights? Do the type of people who learn those disciplines just not want to be involved as much?.

they're certainly giving 100%. however, they're not in a real fight. its a match in a ring with rules, its very organised and both fighters are highly trained. its a sport, and the styles you usually see are the styles with a lot of focus on full contact competition; boxing, muay thai, wrestling, BJJ, judo, etc.

[GoGoGo]

Ahhh. Thank you for the information! ^^

[TriangleMan]

I'd like to get educated in UFC and Pride a little more just to understand.

These matches confuse me becuase of the following reasons:

1. The fighters seem to strike like street fighters who were never taught much about fighting. They seem to just "go wild" on their opponent rather than using precision, fast, and powerful strikes.

You may not have a good understanding of the kinds of strikes they're throwing if you're coming from a karate background. A punch is a punch, so it may look like a brawl, but you're missing subtle details in each strike. Pride MW champ Silva, for example, throws very fast and very hard, but the punches he throws often are very tight hooks rather than just wild haymakers. By keeping the hooks tight (and hitting real hard) hes able to get in more punches than his opponent. The idea is to overwhelm them- throw one or two punches at an opponent and he'll probably block or evade them. Throw 5 or 6, and ones bound to get through. Blocking or evading punches is like walking backwards- it buys you a little time, but you're bound to get caught.

In contrast, someone like Mirko Cro Cop is much more precise with his punches- he likes to throw straights much more than Silva does, and also throws a few uppercuts. Hes more linear in his approach to the punching game and hes willing to take the time to wear you down by throwing fewer, but more direct and more precise punches, as opposed to Silva whos going to run over you like a bulldozer.

Finally, you can have someone like Liddell who often keeps his hands wide and appears to throw wild haymakers as well. What hes actually doing though is counterpunching and he does it quite well. He baits his opponent into throwing at him by exposing his face when he keeps his arms wide, but when his opponent throws, Liddell quickly takes advantage of the opening he created and attacks from the sides to get a couple of good shots in. This is often how he initiates the fight. Should one of those punches land good and hard, he quickly goes on the attack and is much more linear with his approach to punching (i.e. with jab cross combinations). This often confuses his opponents. Where most fighters usually throw hooks from the outside or jabs and crosses from the inside, Liddell utilizes both very effectively which keeps his opponents in the dark about what kind of an attack is going to come next.

2. The guys seem to be incredibly slow at times. I am taught to kick hard, strong, and have my leg back within a fraction of a second. A lot of UFC/Pride fighters seem to just swing their legs out 20x slower than they should leading to a grab. I also saw a Tae Kwon Do fighter in a match who kicked his opponent about 50 times... Every time he was too slow and it just got blocked/grabbed.

Some heavyweights such as Sylvia and Arlovski are going to look much slower than their smaller counterparts- look up someone like Jens Pulver, Takanori Gomi, or Duane Ludwig and tell me those guys look slow. Besides, you dont have to throw fast in order to hit hard. Most of those types of fighters can take a lot of punishment, so they'll just stand toe to toe and walk through their opponents punches in order to get their own in. Its a battle of attrition.

As far as kicks taught in TKD or Karate, they're taught speed because you're striking for points as opposed to power. Should you ever find yourself on the receiving end of a Muay Thai kick, you'll know what I mean. I've trained in karate and TKD- their style of kick is thrown AT you and designed to get in and out quick, at the expense of power. A Muay Thai kick is thrown THROUGH you- your opponent is literally trying to break you in half with his leg. Natrually, such a kick is going to require a bigger setup, but watch someone like Mirko Cro Cop who is devestatingly fast with his high left roundhouse and kicks like a mule.

As far as grabbing a kick, its possible to do should you throw a kick at or above waist level. Any lower than that is dangerous- trying to grab a kick thrown at your knee drops your hands drastically, and if you fail to grab the leg, your opponent often is following up with a strong punch that you have no way to defend.

So I wonder, why are these guys so slow and "hulk"ish? Why don't some fast and powerful guys come and win?

Thanks for your time.

Fast and powerfull guys do come in and win- they're just trained fast an powerfull guys. Such an example of a fast and powerfull guy is Kevin Randleman, who in my opinion is the most explosive fighter in MMA (but has an impressive wrestling background). Besides that, theres much more to a fight than being big and strong.

One question I do have is, how "much" are those guys "fighting?" Are they giving 100% to beat on each other or do they not fight quite as if they were on the street (using as much power, etc...)?

Yes, the fighters are going 100%, but its not intelligent to give it your all in the first 30 seconds of a fight. Remember that if you're stepping into the cage, you're also fighting another (hopefully) well trained opponent who knows how to defend, attack, counter, and strategize. So, if you come out and use everything you possibly can in the opening seconds, a smart fighter may just wither the storm (roper dope style), counter punch (since your over aggressiveness will lead to mistakes and openings) or simply clinch up/grapple and hold you until you exhaust yourself.

A street fight isnt often between two equally matched fighters, so a bigger stronger faster opponent who goes wild can often get away with doing exactly that. If you want to be a good fighter you have to fight with your head and not with your heart. To give an example of what an MMA fighter might do (as opposed to the crazy street fighter) hes thinking of strategizing the fight against his opponent. Its risky to just go out swinging, since either of you may get the upper hand, so you start to try to feel your opponent out, look for weaknesses or shortcomings in his game that you can exploit. You come out and test his hands, see how his striking is, how he reacts to yours- does he panic when he gets hit? Is he scared of clinching or going to the ground? Can he take a hit?

Its kind of like an octopus that works its way around a clam shell looking for the soft part to attack, so let me give you an example of the mindset in an MMA fight:

Suppose Im good with leg kicks, and my opponent is bad at defending them, but hes got good boxing skills and Im not good on the ground. I dont want to go down to the ground with him because Im not comfortable, and its risky to go in and throw punches with him because hes got good hand speed. I need an indirect approach (a good setup) rather than a direct approach (going toe to toe) in order to knock him out.

So, I throw a few leg kicks and they start to add up. After a few kicks, his legs will start to really hurt him. Because of this, hes thinking more about protecting his leg than he is beating me up. After a few more kicks, he can stand the pain anymore and his technique starts to get sloppy- when Im kicking, hes trying to block the kick with his hands. This is exactly what I want, so now I can fake a kick to the legs and when he drops his hands I can come over with a strong right hand to his unprotected head and score a big hit, possibly knocking him out and giving me the fight.

Is there a specific reason why we don't see as much JKD/Karate in the fights? Do the type of people who learn those disciplines just not want to be involved as much?.

When someone makes a tournament between martial arts, some are bound to win and some are bound to lose. Muay Thai and other full contact striking styles saw much more success than did your karate and JKD styles and as a result are a much more popular training style for MMA. But just because they're more popular doesnt mean the others are non existent. If you look hard enough there are very few fighters who claim karate as their background, but often as they continue with MMA they switch to a muay thai training regiment.

[Sohan]

Great post, TriangleMan.

With respect,

Sohan

[legkicker]

Yes, great post Triangleman, you did the answering much more justice than I could have. I was actually kind of shocked by the original post of this thread and was replying in haste, haha.