Dojo concerns: seeking advice

[Brandon Fisher]

Here is my feeling. If the old head of the system had founded the system and set it a certain way I can understand his feeling in those cutting it back. In my opinion if this man founded it and obviously still alive he has the right to step in. He appointed someone to carry on his teachings not lessen the requirement to make it easier. If I appointed someone to take over my system and they dropped that amount of requirements in the name of making it easier. Given I was alive that person would be removed also. Someone that is trusted to carry on tradition does not have the right to make it easier by lessening the requirement. I agree 30 kata is a lot my system will max out on open hand kata at 20 for 5th dan. But the former sensei had his requirements set like that for a reason, I don't know what reason but a reason none the less.

Anyway you were correct in that the old sensei should have been told. The way he found out probably helped him feel like he did and react as he did.

[shinnekodo]

Here is my feeling. If the old head of the system had founded the system and set it a certain way I can understand his feeling in those cutting it back. In my opinion if this man founded it and obviously still alive he has the right to step in. He appointed someone to carry on his teachings not lessen the requirement to make it easier. If I appointed someone to take over my system and they dropped that amount of requirements in the name of making it easier. Given I was alive that person would be removed also. Someone that is trusted to carry on tradition does not have the right to make it easier by lessening the requirement. I agree 30 kata is a lot my system will max out on open hand kata at 20 for 5th dan. But the former sensei had his requirements set like that for a reason, I don't know what reason but a reason none the less.

Anyway you were correct in that the old sensei should have been told. The way he found out probably helped him feel like he did and react as he did.

1. "Founded" can be a relative term. He did indeed start the system, but the ideas, techniques, kata, ETC save for a very few were not original with him. He just decided to do things his own way and broke from his parent system. The difference with his system's start is that he formally obtained his instructor's permission. With us, this man had retired and formally handed the system over to our sensei. There had been NO CONTACT between he and us, not to mention that the seeds for this reorganization were already being sown long before he retired. When he reappeared early this yr, it was after a 6 yr period of silence. He had not been in contact with us concerning martial arts, he was gone and out of the picture when we made these changes. I do not honestly see how he has the right to step back in it at his convenience and "remove" anyone or anything.

2. Nobody in any way, shape, form, or fashion "lessened the requirement to make it easier." The biggest change was to the # of kata taught in the system (which is what I am assuming you are referring to in your post). We are kata people. We were spending the entire alloted time for class trying to do the vast # of kata justice in their practice. There was simply not enough time to give the katas their due and carry on with other class activities (IE, teaching lower belt rank students). In addition, we sought a more traditional focus, especially in kata. In traditional goju styles, there are only 12, we had 28+. We focussed on the traditional katas we had versions of as well as learned other traditional goju kata we did not know.

"Lessening requirements to make things easier" is not applicable here, IMO.

3. I agree with you, the old sensei should have been told right after he appeared, but it was not my place to do so. I was still the junior man, my sensei chose not to tell him. Also, my sensei was the one who approved all the changes to start with, these changes originated with me, were expounded and supported by my colleague and we told our sensei our wishes, but he approved the system change. However, my colleague and I at the time of this post are being held responsible for this event.

In any event, your opinions are your own, I just do not agree with you.

As it stands right now, the old guy is driving his train hard and all the people are laying down like good little railroad ties to be run over. I hope the train can be stopped, but it is in full motion at this hr.

Thanks.

[shinnekodo]

UPDATE

After a lengthy conversation with my sensei this AM, he says that we will continue with our current practice and that our (my colleague and I) places in the system are secure as far as he is concerned. He says that if the old sensei forces his hand (as in suggests or demands that we leave) that he will refuse him even if it means breaking with him.

Needless to say, I feel a lot better about this situation now.

Thanks for your replies.

[cathal]

That comes as a surprise I think. But a happy one. I'm glad your head instructor has stuck up for both himself, his decisions, and in your & your colleague.

Good luck in future training.

[parkerlineage]

I'm glad it sounds like it's going to work out for you.

Your head instructor sounds like a good man. I like people that stick by their principles and friends, even if it's not necessarily the easiest choice.

[Brandon Fisher]

I am glad that your current head guy is backing you.

As far as founding the system if he named it and set up a syllabus then he founded the school. This is what people mistake for founding a new system. The creation of new techniques is rare at best it is ones approach and the method they follow that makes it different. I understand your anger in this matter but the fact still is the old sensei had created this approach and since he is still alive still has rights to it.

I understand time constrait there is not enough time to do everything and a lot of kata is hard to teach effectively I don't disagree with you there. But again whether you guys had been in contact or not I feel some effort should have been made to discuss it with him. What rank is your current sensei? How long has he been training and teaching?

Now if you guys made the changes and gave the system a new name that is a completely different story. Now it is no longer the old sensei's it is yours and there is nothing he can do about it is has simple as that.

I personally currently have 18 empty hand kata in my system and about 10 weapons kata. This is the requirement for 5th dan which is 20 to 25 years of training. However the weapons kata is not a requirement for rank it is extra. But on top of that there are just short of 380 self defense techniques. Thats a lot!! But in the time frame we are looking at it is not so much. The total amount of kata you guys had what was the rank they all were required for? I may have some suggestions to help make this easier for the older guy.

I am not trying to be a pain here I agree with you on what you did I want you to understand that. It was more the method it was done that I don't agree with.

[Jiffy]

Glad to hear things are going to work out for you!

[bushido_man96]

Good to see that your sensei is going to stand by you. Hope it all continues to go well.

[shinnekodo]

I am glad that your current head guy is backing you.

As far as founding the system if he named it and set up a syllabus then he founded the school. This is what people mistake for founding a new system. The creation of new techniques is rare at best it is ones approach and the method they follow that makes it different. I understand your anger in this matter but the fact still is the old sensei had created this approach and since he is still alive still has rights to it.

I understand time constrait there is not enough time to do everything and a lot of kata is hard to teach effectively I don't disagree with you there. But again whether you guys had been in contact or not I feel some effort should have been made to discuss it with him. What rank is your current sensei? How long has he been training and teaching?

Now if you guys made the changes and gave the system a new name that is a completely different story. Now it is no longer the old sensei's it is yours and there is nothing he can do about it is has simple as that.

I personally currently have 18 empty hand kata in my system and about 10 weapons kata. This is the requirement for 5th dan which is 20 to 25 years of training. However the weapons kata is not a requirement for rank it is extra. But on top of that there are just short of 380 self defense techniques. Thats a lot!! But in the time frame we are looking at it is not so much. The total amount of kata you guys had what was the rank they all were required for? I may have some suggestions to help make this easier for the older guy.

I am not trying to be a pain here I agree with you on what you did I want you to understand that. It was more the method it was done that I don't agree with.

1. My current sensei holds the rank of 10th dan and has been practicing martial arts for some odd 32 yrs. This 10th dan he received in 2000 when the former system head retired, he was only 7th dan at the time but was the highest ranking student, so he received the 10th dan and the system (or so he/we thought).

2. We did make changes to the system and renamed it. It is not the same system that the former head left behind.

3. In the old system, by the rank of 5th dan, one would be responsible for 23 kata plus 5 preparatory forms called pinons (we always call the pinons kata most of the time, however). In the new system, it is 5 pinons plus 12 kata, but the kata are more traditional. We actually have learned 4 traditional kata and added them amongst the 12 we practice today. The kata system is very different from the former style. In the old style, there were also several weapon katas, but in general, we have gotten away from weapons practice, we still do some, but do not require it any more for rank. This trend away from weapons started way before the system changes were put into effect, primarily due to a lack of a place to do weapons.

[Brandon Fisher]

1. My current sensei holds the rank of 10th dan and has been practicing martial arts for some odd 32 yrs. This 10th dan he received in 2000 when the former system head retired, he was only 7th dan at the time but was the highest ranking student, so he received the 10th dan and the system (or so he/we thought).

2. We did make changes to the system and renamed it. It is not the same system that the former head left behind.

The part right there ends any question on whether this is right or wrong. The fact is the old guy has no right to it considering it was renamed. You are in the right.

As far as your instructors rank with his years in and rank he clearly should have the knowledge to do this so that should not be in question.

23 kata to 5th dan thats still alot, I thought mine was kinda high.