Question about all the animal stances.

[P.A.L]

almost all karate techniques, including the throws, come from kung fu, not jujitsu. a lot of them are very similar however.

also, i don't quite get the 'its stance, no its not its kazushi' debate. the stances as they are demonstrated in the kata are part of kazushi as i understand. the stances are a bit rigid and exagerated in kata but i see judoka using them all the time.

We can go back and check some resources but to my best knowledge people of Okinawa had been familiar with Japanise jujutsu and they had their own system of Te, Chinese merchents and families brougth in striking arts of chinese boxing and Chin-na (the seizing and controling part), these all mixed together created different styles of Okinawan karate(or just Okinawan te), when karate transfered to japan some japanies jujutsu masters added more of their techniques into karate systems like shindo jenin ryu or wado ryu.

but Japanise jujutsu have been influenced by Chinese grappling arts to begin with, ?! very well possible.

[elbows_and_knees]

well if according to you assuming a correct stance for performing each particular technique is not a necessity and it just helps, then next time you practice your judo based throws , just stay in upright natural stance and use your hands and center of gravity, and do the throws and let us know how it works out.

if your hands are in seoinage and you throw from pulling in forward stance then it's not a seoinage anymore it is consider as a taiotoshi throw, the stance makes a difference that you are throwing from hip or hand/leg

which is what I stated the primary purpose of stance was - transition. Read my first post on this thread. The "stance" itself really is not necessary, just that you are transitioning in such a way to accomodate what you are trying to do. This is why a pure judoka (with no other training) will not know what a horse stance is, nor do they perform stance training - transitioning is just basic footwork. It's not the stance that even performs the throw - it's the kazushi and the kake. part of the kake of seionage is extending your legs from the bent position - taking you out of the "horse stance" the stance is part of tskuri - the transition between steps one and three. If you just stay in horse, you still will not complete the throw.

as for judo and jujutsu, when you talk about karate then throws are jujutsu based anyway doesn't matter what kind of karate. maybe there are some sports that use judo techniques but karate in general is not one of them.

see above comment on judo / jujutsu. Do you think the o soto gari you learn in a kata is any different in judo or jujutsu? No. JJJ does have some techniques that judo does not, but the effectiveness of the shared throws is the same. As for style of karate, i already commented on that - funakoshi and kano were friends. A natural, logical conclusion is that he included some of his judo experiences in his karate.

[elbows_and_knees]

I didnt see it listed

Crane stance sometime referred to as Tsuru Ashi Dachi, Sagi Ashi Dachi and Gankaku dachi.

Used to move out of the way of a low leg strike. Used in Karate and weapons kata.

in chinese MA, this is also used to throw.

[alsey]

We can go back and check some resources but to my best knowledge people of Okinawa had been familiar with Japanise jujutsu and they had their own system of Te, Chinese merchents and families brougth in striking arts of chinese boxing and Chin-na (the seizing and controling part), these all mixed together created different styles of Okinawan karate(or just Okinawan te), when karate transfered to japan some japanies jujutsu masters added more of their techniques into karate systems like shindo jenin ryu or wado ryu.

but Japanise jujutsu have been influenced by Chinese grappling arts to begin with, ?! very well possible.

i may have to go and check my history, but some of the really old kata (like passai) existed before there was any real opportunity for the samurai to influence the art. i'm pretty sure most of it comes from chinese systems, though bits of jujutsu have been added over the years i guess.

Edited August 21, 2006 by alsey

[elbows_and_knees]

yeah, that's what i was saying. i see judoka using karate stances all the time, they just don't look the way the look in a kata. the stances are part of kazushi, even if you don't notice it.

yeah, that's my point exactly. you don't have to teach stance per se to achieve that effect, hence the lack of formal stance training in judo.

[elbows_and_knees]

almost all karate techniques, including the throws, come from kung fu, not jujitsu. a lot of them are very similar however.

that can't be verified, actually. there are a lot of stories on the origin of jjj, but there is no one verifiable, concise story, AFAIK. one story is that it came from china via chen gempin who taught three different locks to three different people, and they expanded on it, creating the first three styles of jjj. Other stories say that development of jjjj was completely japanese. Now, one thing we can say is that china influenced sumo wrestling. If you watch it, you can see similar principles in execution to those found in shuai chiao.

also, i don't quite get the 'its stance, no its not its kazushi' debate. the stances as they are demonstrated in the kata are part of kazushi as i understand. the stances are a bit rigid and exagerated in kata but i see judoka using them all the time.

see my reply to PAL. but to elaborate on part of what you said, there are three parts to a throw - kazushi, tskuri and kake. when you perform the kazushi, you are NOT in a stance yet, you are transitioning to it, in most cases, seionage (since we keep using that one) is one of them. The next part - tskuri - is where you drop into a "stance". since there is no stance training, it may not be a technically correct stance, nor does it have to be - and that's part of my point. my footwork is putting me into something that resembles a horse stance, but technically speaking, it is not a horse stance. in the kake phase, you leave the "stance" and complete the throw.

[alsey]

really i was just saying that karate originates from kung fu, not jujutsu, though bits of jujutsu have been added here and there.

see my reply to PAL. but to elaborate on part of what you said, there are three parts to a throw - kazushi, tskuri and kake. when you perform the kazushi, you are NOT in a stance yet, you are transitioning to it, in most cases, seionage (since we keep using that one) is one of them. The next part - tskuri - is where you drop into a "stance". since there is no stance training, it may not be a technically correct stance, nor does it have to be - and that's part of my point. my footwork is putting me into something that resembles a horse stance, but technically speaking, it is not a horse stance. in the kake phase, you leave the "stance" and complete the throw.

yeah, spot on.

[Jiffy]

really i was just saying that karate originates from kung fu, not jujutsu, though bits of jujutsu have been added here and there.

Agreed

[Brandon Fisher]

really i was just saying that karate originates from kung fu, not jujutsu, though bits of jujutsu have been added here and there.

Agreed

I also agree.

[AngelaG]

yeah, that's what i was saying. i see judoka using karate stances all the time, they just don't look the way the look in a kata. the stances are part of kazushi, even if you don't notice it.

yeah, that's my point exactly. you don't have to teach stance per se to achieve that effect, hence the lack of formal stance training in judo.

I think you'll find I said right at the beginning that stances are transitional and the work is done getting into a stance.

Also just because there is more than one way to skin a cat does not make another way wrong. Shotokan at least trains stances for a multiple number of reasons, including strengthening and conditioning of the leg muscles; being low lessens the target area; drops the COG and also to achieve a projection of body mass in a given direction.